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In my view Etzel Send a noteboard - 04/05/2010 10:07:02 AM
In my view your idea that Min's Viewing about Alivia helping Rand to die is fulfilled by letting herself killed by Seanchan, so that Gawyn can take Mat's medallion from her - which Alivia for some reason will get from Elayne, who for some reason got it from Mat, because apparently both don't need it (but why would Gawyn take it then anyway? he doesn't know that it stops channeling) - and go on to kill Rand (who has no other guards around?) is simply too far-fetched for me. Min's Viewing clearly implies a more direct help from Alivia in Rand's death, IMO.

I find it rather strange that you believe that my theory does not fulfill the viewing because Alivia helps him die in a random way (which is very much RJ's style, IMO), yet you think your theory fits it better when it does not seem to include Rand actually dying. Min's viewing says he will die, and the words that she uses come with the viewing.


Your interpretation of the Prophecies doesn't fit the wording: Alivia simply doesn't help Rand in a direct and specific way to die, like Elayne wouldn't simply because she gave Alivia the medallion. Following your theory one would rather have to say that Gawyn "helps" Rand to die. Of course, this is also not correct, since he doesn't want to "help" Rand, but just wants to kill him in your opinion.

Similarly the Aelfinn's answer suggests that Rand has actively to do something, namely "dying", in order to live. That implies that simply being killed isn't enough, but that Rand has to find a way to be dead and alive at the same time. The solution to this is a state where Rand appears dead - is even basically dead because the processes of his life are temporarily shut done - but is actually still alive, like in a coma or stasis, and can be revived.

Gawyn will obviously have to learn from some source about what the medallion does. I don't see why you think this is unlikely. And while I feel no need to theorize on exactly how he will find out, I can imagine several scenarios where he could find out.

For instance (I'm not saying this is how it will happen...just one way it could happen): Mat thinks the 'Finns will steal his medallion, so he gives it to Elayne to keep safe for him, with the ulterior motive of keeping her safe like Rand asked him to forever ago. Gawyn comes to Caemlyn before the battle begins. He is either there when Mat gives the medallion to Elayne, or he learns how it works in some other way. Rand isn't there yet. Gawyn and Elayne fight about Rand, so Elayne is not inclined to let him use the medallion when the battle begins, but he leads her troops because it is his duty. Shortly after the battle begins, Rand shows up with Alivia. Elayne gives the medallion to Alivia to use because she knows she doesn't need it (either because it doesn't work, or because she knows she will survive to give birth to her babies). Alivia kicks Seanchan ass, dies, and Gawyn sees her, and takes the medallion off her body because he knows Rand is nearby and he wants to kill him.


The problem is that your theory relies on too many such on the whole unsupported assumptions.

That then Nynaeve also has to rip out Rand from TAR seems highly unlikely as well, because it seems - like in Birgitte's case - to be a short-circuiting of the Pattern, which isn't supposed to happen. If the Dragon is needed, he is spun out.

He can't be spun out right after he dies. He has to be ripped out. It's not exactly short-circuiting. Min's viewings about Birgitte seem to suggest that Birgitte is very much still a Hero of the Horn, even after having been ripped out. It was only a bad thing for Birgitte because she's not sure if she'll find Gaidal now, and because she'll be much older than him, and because she almost died from it. Rand's three women will save him with their bond to him. The reason why Birgitte was compelled to break the precepts is because Nynaeve needed to learn how to 'heal' Rand's death.


Why can't Rand be spun out directly again, if the Pattern needs the Dragon?

Also, as said, the Heroes waiting in TAR are dead (even if not as dead as others), while a Hero, who is ripped out of TAR, is alive. Thus, Rand wouldn't be alive and dead at the same time, but first dead and then alive.

He will be dead and alive at the same time because Heroes are not dead as others are dead. They are still able to interact with the living in Tel'aran'rhiod. Rand might choose to not break the precepts, but Nynaeve (possibly with Egwene) could find him with Need (Egwene might be needed to hold him once he's found - Birgitte said that the living can do more in Tel'aran'rhiod than the Heroes can).


But the Heroes in TAR are dead, basically ghost or souls, as e.g. the Prophecy of the Horn shows. They aren't alive, even if they can interact with you (like e.g. the dead Hopper with Perrin). Besides, Rand still has to be alive and dead, when he is on the boat with his three girls. But to achieve being on the boat alive & dead, Rand must already be ripped out of TAR, and then he would be just alive, not still be dead at the same time.

But there is of course the possibility that the Aelfinn's prophecied "death" would be fulfilled if Rand e.g. just has to be in a deep coma so that he appears to be dead to others, while he is actually still alive. The Prophecies are often not completely literal, e.g. Rand wasn't literally blind as the end Prophecy of TGS.

He's either dead or he's not. In this scenario, he is not. Mat's hanging didn't count for 'die and live again', and his heart actually stopped beating. Rand being in a coma won't count either. After all, the prophecies come from the same source. In my scenario, Rand is as dead as he will ever be, short of permanent death, but as a Hero of the Horn, he is still alive, in the sense that the living can find him in Tel'aran'rhiod, and in the sense that he can easily be ripped out into the living world again.


Actually Mat was also never dead at all, because of the balefire. In any case, Rand's case is different because contrary to Mat he will be dead and alive at the same time. This only works with a coma. And as said, if it could fulfill a similar Prophecy in Dune, I'm certain that the explanation for being dead and alive at the same time could be a coma in WoT as well (though still a bit different of course, because Alivia will assist by putting Rand into a coma with the OP). This is also based on several myths.

Of course, I don't think that any Hero could be ripped out at any time. They would either have to break the precepts like Birgitte, or be found by Need, like Rand, because when a Hero doesn't want to be found, they won't be found.


I think the Pattern will simply spun them out, if they are needed.
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