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Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ... Shishka Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
Let me preface this by saying this is all just opinion. I don't think there is any evidence that proves it conclusively.

Here's a quote from RJ:

Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.


As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.

Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.

I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.

But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.

Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.

My two cents ...
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.

-BHT&tM
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Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM 1532 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM 944 Views
No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM 968 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM 831 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM 748 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM 689 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM 681 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too - 26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM 771 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 27/05/2010 06:46:42 PM 669 Views
I think it would be the latter - 27/05/2010 07:11:17 PM 774 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. - 26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM 702 Views
I disagree - 27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM 699 Views
Re: I disagree - 27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM 746 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM 792 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM 887 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here - 27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM 719 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop. - 27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM 721 Views
*nods* *NM* - 27/05/2010 11:29:10 PM 327 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR - 27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM 661 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself - 27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM 850 Views
I don't agree. - 27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM 713 Views
you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM 857 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM 761 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:42:36 PM 765 Views
That's the point. - 27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM 741 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM 708 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM 704 Views
We may never know! - 27/05/2010 09:21:48 PM 743 Views
I would be very surprised if it came up in the books - 27/05/2010 09:25:29 PM 704 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM 671 Views
Fascinating Idea #4 on this thread. Thanks, Sid! *NM* - 26/05/2010 10:31:48 PM 343 Views
Channeler heal thyself - 26/05/2010 11:40:25 PM 795 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:35:49 PM 704 Views
Doesn't work - 26/05/2010 08:37:40 PM 914 Views
we've seen this fail - 26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM 665 Views
I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:32 PM 652 Views
I'd say you either die or just wake up if you tried that - 26/05/2010 08:40:31 PM 670 Views
As far as I know... - 26/05/2010 08:38:36 PM 701 Views
This could work - 26/05/2010 08:43:21 PM 880 Views
Thanks - 26/05/2010 08:51:17 PM 709 Views
Re: Thanks - 26/05/2010 09:12:10 PM 670 Views
So I think this disproves it - 26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM 950 Views
Is that really true? - 26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM 735 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM* - 26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM 356 Views
I would generally agree with your edits - 26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM 693 Views
yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM 610 Views
Re: yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM 656 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte - 26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM 718 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit? - 26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM 679 Views
And I agree with your response - 26/05/2010 09:49:00 PM 676 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM 769 Views
Re: You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:57:06 PM 658 Views
The short answer to Birgitte - 27/05/2010 02:37:13 AM 662 Views
I think this is possible. - 26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM 720 Views
Dream gateway! - 27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM 663 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form - 27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM 632 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind - 27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM 608 Views
aren't we all? *NM* - 27/05/2010 12:04:08 AM 295 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R - 27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM 635 Views
Why not? - 27/05/2010 03:41:10 PM 779 Views
if it's just a creation of your mind? - 27/05/2010 04:03:29 PM 728 Views
is it possible to Travel in T'A'R when dreaming? - 27/05/2010 12:06:57 AM 656 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before... - 27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM 739 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit. - 27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM 755 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world. - 27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM 724 Views
The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM 644 Views
That's a weird situation. - 27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM 706 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious' - 27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM 716 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM 742 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM 680 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM 766 Views
Actually I don't think so.. - 28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM 645 Views
your dream self couldn't exit TAR... - 27/05/2010 06:39:26 AM 704 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it. - 27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM 870 Views
Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ... - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM 797 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 27/05/2010 06:58:18 PM 647 Views
shucks everyone already thought of this... *NM* - 27/05/2010 07:08:50 PM 309 Views
problem solved... sort of? - 28/05/2010 02:48:13 AM 781 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR... - 29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM 705 Views

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