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Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ... Shishka Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
Let me preface this by saying this is all just opinion. I don't think there is any evidence that proves it conclusively.

Here's a quote from RJ:

Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.


As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.

Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.

I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.

But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.

Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.

My two cents ...
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.

-BHT&tM
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Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM 1468 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM 902 Views
No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM 918 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM 785 Views
Re: No I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM 699 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM 646 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM 625 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too - 26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM 722 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking - 27/05/2010 06:46:42 PM 624 Views
I think it would be the latter - 27/05/2010 07:11:17 PM 731 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. - 26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM 650 Views
I disagree - 27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM 643 Views
Re: I disagree - 27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM 698 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM 738 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off - 27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM 838 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here - 27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM 673 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop. - 27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM 670 Views
*nods* *NM* - 27/05/2010 11:29:10 PM 295 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR - 27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM 614 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself - 27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM 799 Views
I don't agree. - 27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM 671 Views
you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM 816 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM 716 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think - 27/05/2010 06:42:36 PM 726 Views
That's the point. - 27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM 699 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM 660 Views
Re: That's the point. - 27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM 657 Views
We may never know! - 27/05/2010 09:21:48 PM 700 Views
I would be very surprised if it came up in the books - 27/05/2010 09:25:29 PM 660 Views
Interesting idea. - 26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM 622 Views
Fascinating Idea #4 on this thread. Thanks, Sid! *NM* - 26/05/2010 10:31:48 PM 315 Views
Channeler heal thyself - 26/05/2010 11:40:25 PM 742 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 26/05/2010 08:35:49 PM 658 Views
Doesn't work - 26/05/2010 08:37:40 PM 870 Views
we've seen this fail - 26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM 622 Views
I don't mean that - 26/05/2010 08:39:32 PM 615 Views
I'd say you either die or just wake up if you tried that - 26/05/2010 08:40:31 PM 623 Views
As far as I know... - 26/05/2010 08:38:36 PM 655 Views
This could work - 26/05/2010 08:43:21 PM 841 Views
Thanks - 26/05/2010 08:51:17 PM 663 Views
Re: Thanks - 26/05/2010 09:12:10 PM 625 Views
So I think this disproves it - 26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM 906 Views
Is that really true? - 26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM 688 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM* - 26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM 324 Views
I would generally agree with your edits - 26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM 651 Views
yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM 570 Views
Re: yes and no - 26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM 608 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte - 26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM 665 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit? - 26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM 626 Views
And I agree with your response - 26/05/2010 09:49:00 PM 628 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM 715 Views
Re: You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. - 26/05/2010 10:57:06 PM 615 Views
The short answer to Birgitte - 27/05/2010 02:37:13 AM 614 Views
I think this is possible. - 26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM 672 Views
Dream gateway! - 27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM 618 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form - 27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM 597 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind - 27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM 571 Views
aren't we all? *NM* - 27/05/2010 12:04:08 AM 272 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R - 27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM 588 Views
Why not? - 27/05/2010 03:41:10 PM 731 Views
if it's just a creation of your mind? - 27/05/2010 04:03:29 PM 668 Views
is it possible to Travel in T'A'R when dreaming? - 27/05/2010 12:06:57 AM 617 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before... - 27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM 701 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit. - 27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM 708 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world. - 27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM 682 Views
The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM 601 Views
That's a weird situation. - 27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM 663 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious' - 27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM 666 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare... - 27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM 697 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM 641 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after... - 28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM 715 Views
Actually I don't think so.. - 28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM 609 Views
your dream self couldn't exit TAR... - 27/05/2010 06:39:26 AM 659 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it. - 27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM 819 Views
Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ... - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM 759 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem - 27/05/2010 06:58:18 PM 607 Views
shucks everyone already thought of this... *NM* - 27/05/2010 07:08:50 PM 284 Views
problem solved... sort of? - 28/05/2010 02:48:13 AM 731 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR... - 29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM 661 Views

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