Active Users:962 Time:15/09/2026 07:11:11 PM
Of course, it is false Etzel Send a noteboard - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
Because of your statement, the phrase "a murder of opportunity" - which was never actually used by RJ! - "more than implies that the killer did NOT plan it." This is completely wrong.

Means, motive and opportunity are typical criterias in any murder, irrespective of the question if the murder was planned or not. It's also false that if opportunity is the most important criteria in a specific murder, it must mean that this murder wasn't planned at all, but just some kind of unplanned accident or chance.

To get a better understanding of what we are actually talking about, you should read the Wikipedia article about it [link below].

I cite:
"In US Criminal law, means, motive, and opportunity is a popular cultural summation of the three aspects of a crime needed to convince a jury of guilt in a criminal proceeding. Respectively, they refer to: the ability of the defendant to commit the crime (means), the reason the defendant had to commit the crime (motive), and whether or not the defendant had the opportunity to commit the crime (opportunity)."

And the corresponding example:
"If a criminal shot someone with a handgun and took his/her money when the victim was in an isolated, secluded area at night, the means would be the handgun, the motive financial (i.e., the money they stole), and the opportunity the fact that it would be unlikely someone else would witness or stop them."

So, the mentioning of opportunity as being important by RJ doesn't tell us at all that the murder wasn't planned.

As said before, some people just claim that RJ's usage of the term "road kill" would prove that the murder was basically an accident. This is wrong as well, though, since we don't know the context in which RJ mentioned this. It's at least as likely that RJ just wanted to paraphrase his reasons as an author to take the redundant character Asmo from the story with "road kill". Otherwise, if RJ actually wanted to give such a major clue to the murder, it could even have the meaning of "political road kill", which would indicate that Asmo was killed on the orders of one of his Forsaken rivals.
Means, motive, and opportunity
This message last edited by Etzel on 02/06/2010 at 12:13:51 PM
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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2861 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1550 Views
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very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 863 Views
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Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1314 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1344 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1398 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1456 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 1331 Views
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so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 1285 Views
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Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1392 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 1181 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 1172 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 1160 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1497 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1355 Views
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Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 1291 Views
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Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1374 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 1294 Views
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It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 1309 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 1293 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1310 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1470 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1348 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1364 Views
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Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1368 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1423 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1495 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 1273 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1395 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 1278 Views
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Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 1192 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 1219 Views
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Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1387 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1341 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 680 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1337 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 1311 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1339 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 1252 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 1305 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1331 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1358 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 1224 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 1300 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 1266 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 1316 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 1087 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 1217 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 1217 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 1039 Views
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Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1409 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 792 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 1105 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1337 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1542 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 1050 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1559 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 1251 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 1251 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 1225 Views
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Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 1170 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 806 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1315 Views
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If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 1285 Views
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yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1328 Views
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RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 1139 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 1146 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 1215 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 1185 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 1193 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 1146 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 786 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 1092 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 1096 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 1236 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1421 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 1263 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 1193 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 1290 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1307 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 1214 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 1198 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 1223 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 1210 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 1279 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1400 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 1265 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 1208 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 780 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 1123 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 647 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 852 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 1287 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 1246 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 1216 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 1209 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 817 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1318 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 1206 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 1221 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 1257 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 1210 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 1330 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 1258 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 1541 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 1303 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1352 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 1229 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 1236 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 1283 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1326 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 1295 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 1360 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1376 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 1123 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 1218 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 1189 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1333 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 1238 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 1254 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 1182 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 1213 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 1315 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1683 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 1223 Views

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