Active Users:327 Time:02/07/2025 06:58:15 AM
You were right the first time DomA Send a noteboard - 26/07/2010 03:02:22 AM
It makes no real sense that the Moridin first wanted Semirhage to capture Rand with the DB in KoD (as stated in TGS, prologue). Then SH actually frees Semirhage to try it again. Exactly in the moment, when she succeeds, when Rand is breaking, since he is killing Min, the DO would prevent this by saving Min and killing Semirhage due to giving Rand access to the TP.

It makes more sense that Rand managed to take the TP through the link to Moridin and that the Shadow couldn't foresee this. If Rand wouldn't have done this, the Shadow had likely won, because Rand would be a prisoner at SG, tortured by Semirhage, and Min dead.


I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books later. I think that is pretty impressive. Maybe RJ wanted to mislead us by that quote or maybe he wanted it to be a hint about the DOs true involvement. Semirhage believed that the DO betrayed her and the end result of the exchange seems to me to be in the DOs favor even if he didn't plan it that way. I agree also with what you are saying as well, though.

To me there is not enough evidence to figure out what the DOs involvement is. Hopefully, we will get a Moridin PoV or some other evidence to answer this question.



I think you were on the right track in your first post. The context of the LOC quote (which has been discussed a lot before in this context, by the way) is very important, because Semirhage was precisely expressing her worries about the DO's "whims", all the secret moves he made on the board, the introduction of a new player like SH, and she feared all along the DO might expend even pieces as powerful as his Chosen to achieve a specific goal.

Also important was the fact she mentions in that scene that she would kneel even to al'Thor if the DO made him Nae'blis...

So that's definitely foreshadowing. In the end, Shai'tan chose to gain power over Rand over Semirhage's life.

This scene is also completed in TGS with the Moridin/Rand conversation that set the stage for the betrayal of Semirhage. Moridin confirms Semirhage's greatest fears: the Chosen are fools whom the DO intend to betray in the end as there will be no reward but the end of Creation. Moridin also gave Rand the means by which he could prevent transmigration. Moridin cannot betray Shai'tan, because he is addicted to the TP and Shai'tan is also the only way Moridin can get what he wants, so.... what he told Rand wouldn't have displeased Shai'tan. Moridin/Shai'tan thought they had Rand pretty much in the state where he'd wish to end it all.

Also, there's the fact Jordan has long ago answered straight out how someone can use the TP, seeking to correct misconceptions about a pre-established connection and stuff like this (he must have known even then Rand would be given access down the line). There's three conditions for a human: the ability to channel, knowing how to embrace the TP (that is what Rand seems to have gained from Moridin, inconsciously), and Shai'tan letting you. It isn't and never was a question of connection to Shai'tan (the whole theory about Rand using his mental link to Moridin seems very much like a new variation on these misconceptions that you need any special connection....). It's very unlikely there's more to it than that. When there was aspects he chose to keep secret, Jordan had the habit of adding "there's more than that... but RAFO", as he did for several similar topics, like transmigration, the making of Grey Men, how the Chosen picked their powerbases, or even the purpose of the Dark Prophecy etc. For the TP access, he gave repeatedly a straight out answer with no caveat (and that's reflected by everything the Chosen have said about the TP in the series). It's fairly obvious RJ intended us to interpret what happened in TGS as the DO havinggiven Rand access to the TP. How everything went downhill with Rand right after that (even his ta'veren nature seemed affected - nothing the Wheel had been pulling him toward lately worked.. failure with Tuon, with Cadsuane, in AD, with the Bordermen, hitting a wall with Nynaeve about Lan... and in the end almost destroying the world...) sort of makes it obvious why the DO chose to betray Semirhage when she made the big mistake of torturing Rand, putting him in the state where he could embrace the TP (that's when Shai'tan took the decision, IMO. I don't believe it was all along a set up. He meant Semirhage to capture Rand, period. He betrayed her when she open an unexpected opportunity to bait Rand to use the TP)

Brandon is just walking on eggs with these answers, because AMOL is the last book and forcibly has many answers, but it's been split in three. Brandon is quite a bit in the position of giving us answers about the book when only 1/3 of it has been read, and forcibly issues set up in acts 1-2 will stay around for act 3 as well. It's no wonder he's trying to avoid confirming much of anything, and that he's being vague. In this specific instance, the fact he pointed out to Semirhage and her reaction is pretty telling, though (he brought her belief up, not the persons asking the questions who didn't even mention her)
Reply to message
foreshadowing of Semirhage's death - 25/07/2010 07:13:48 AM 1679 Views
I don't think that Semirhage was sacrificed - 25/07/2010 08:36:47 AM 887 Views
No, too tired to give reasons... *NM* - 25/07/2010 09:30:46 AM 282 Views
Re: No, too tired to give reasons... *NM* - 26/07/2010 01:19:26 AM 284 Views
I disagree about the TP aspect - 25/07/2010 03:30:37 PM 794 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 25/07/2010 04:03:45 PM 789 Views
It's an interesting theory in either direction - 25/07/2010 04:54:31 PM 739 Views
Re: It's an interesting theory in either direction - 26/07/2010 02:17:35 AM 580 Views
You can't expect BS to give away things with 2 books to go. - 26/07/2010 01:48:37 AM 654 Views
Re: You can't expect BS to give away things with 2 books to go. - 26/07/2010 02:24:29 AM 612 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 26/07/2010 01:22:30 AM 616 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 26/07/2010 02:30:11 AM 588 Views
^^^what Datakim said^^^ - 26/07/2010 06:58:02 PM 609 Views
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books - 26/07/2010 02:29:59 AM 688 Views
You were right the first time - 26/07/2010 03:02:22 AM 712 Views
I think the question is... - 26/07/2010 08:27:17 AM 634 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 12:43:44 AM 627 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 01:15:29 AM 639 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 02:10:41 AM 610 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 03:17:01 AM 679 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 05:08:59 AM 687 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 05:59:37 PM 636 Views
I'd say that there was a pre-meditated plan or backup plan to sacrifice Semirhage - 26/07/2010 09:02:44 AM 673 Views
I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 09:17:11 AM 596 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 12:10:43 PM 601 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 12:27:11 PM 685 Views
But if this was the plan... - 26/07/2010 12:30:37 PM 596 Views
Moridin and SH knew that the CK could never defeat the dark one so they were happy to leave it - 26/07/2010 05:56:56 PM 673 Views
Unlikely, and stupid if true - 26/07/2010 06:12:30 PM 613 Views
That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth. - 27/07/2010 12:11:46 AM 563 Views
Re: That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth. - 27/07/2010 01:29:29 AM 582 Views
I fail to see the relevance. *NM* - 27/07/2010 02:06:27 AM 266 Views
the relevance is that it was impossible without the CK - 27/07/2010 05:25:45 AM 532 Views
Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 05:37:28 AM 581 Views
Re: Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 03:00:51 PM 626 Views
Re: Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 06:17:59 PM 574 Views
key word is "necessary" *NM* - 27/07/2010 05:14:19 AM 244 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 01:36:53 AM 557 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 02:19:22 AM 587 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 02:43:39 AM 604 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:17:49 AM 620 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:39:07 AM 593 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 04:26:31 AM 608 Views
Something still doesn't make sense in that theory though - 27/07/2010 07:15:22 AM 680 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 01:44:19 AM 634 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 05:31:03 AM 557 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:53:20 PM 597 Views
??? The CK in the hands of a madman is exactly what the Dark One needs to destroy the pattern - 27/07/2010 07:01:13 AM 606 Views
So why not give it to Moridin then? - 27/07/2010 10:54:47 AM 605 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 27/07/2010 12:10:01 AM 556 Views
This has been seen and commented before, by myself and others. - 26/07/2010 03:36:51 PM 572 Views
Sorry I missed them. I would have been happy enough to comment there. - 27/07/2010 03:43:46 AM 598 Views
Considering there are years and years worth of comments... - 27/07/2010 02:49:42 PM 555 Views
Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series - 26/07/2010 04:27:14 PM 601 Views
Re: Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series - 26/07/2010 10:34:18 PM 553 Views
Prophesying, but not foreshadowing. - 27/07/2010 12:06:06 AM 521 Views
You confuse foreshadowing and predictability - 27/07/2010 02:57:15 AM 889 Views
I agree with DomA *NM* *NM* - 27/07/2010 03:44:51 AM 265 Views
I don't believe in foreshadowing that you can figure out from the actual plot. - 27/07/2010 08:42:11 PM 582 Views

Reply to Message