Graendal is holding the TP and using a dove to spy on Rand. She sees him take out the Access Key and quickly figures out what he's planning. She releases the TP, and in a panic, almost fails to embrace Saidar.
She then first weaves a Gateway. After that, Aran'gar, who's watching out of the window, makes a comment about how much of the Power Rand was holding. Graendal realizes that since Aran'gar and Delana wove compulsion on Ramshalan, they'd have to die, or else Rand would think Graendal was alive. So she slams a shield into both of them, and ties them off. As she does this, both women gasp. Delana gasping is no surprise, since she can see Graendal weave a shield. Thus, she may not have been holding the source. That Aran'gar gasped implies to me that she was holding the source, and felt it get cut off (and it makes sense that she was holding the source. Rand had just channeled enormous amounts of the OP). After tying off the shields, Graendal now wraps the two women in Air, and flees through her Gateway. At no time is the angreal mentioned.
Some critical things:
Graendal is confident that Aran'gar cannot break through her shield anytime soon. Since she made it really really fast, I doubt she made a complicated knot. That means that Graendal is enough stronger than Aran'gar that the other woman can't easily brush off her shield.
Graendal is a really fast channeler. That even in a panicked state she could do so many things that required so much power implies to me that she is one of the most skilled among the Foresaken. I think only Lanfear could have done the same.
More than anything else, Graendal is an intelligent channeler, which makes her much more dangerous than her strength alone would have. She's certainly been set up as Moridin's counterpart among the females, with her TP access.
Nynaeve has insane skill with Healing. The way Graendal phrases it, someone with the ability to read her compulsions is extremely rare. It might interest you to know that before she figured out that Rand was going to BF Natrin's Barrow, Graendal made a plan to kill Nynaeve.
She then first weaves a Gateway. After that, Aran'gar, who's watching out of the window, makes a comment about how much of the Power Rand was holding. Graendal realizes that since Aran'gar and Delana wove compulsion on Ramshalan, they'd have to die, or else Rand would think Graendal was alive. So she slams a shield into both of them, and ties them off. As she does this, both women gasp. Delana gasping is no surprise, since she can see Graendal weave a shield. Thus, she may not have been holding the source. That Aran'gar gasped implies to me that she was holding the source, and felt it get cut off (and it makes sense that she was holding the source. Rand had just channeled enormous amounts of the OP). After tying off the shields, Graendal now wraps the two women in Air, and flees through her Gateway. At no time is the angreal mentioned.
Some critical things:
Graendal is confident that Aran'gar cannot break through her shield anytime soon. Since she made it really really fast, I doubt she made a complicated knot. That means that Graendal is enough stronger than Aran'gar that the other woman can't easily brush off her shield.
Graendal is a really fast channeler. That even in a panicked state she could do so many things that required so much power implies to me that she is one of the most skilled among the Foresaken. I think only Lanfear could have done the same.
More than anything else, Graendal is an intelligent channeler, which makes her much more dangerous than her strength alone would have. She's certainly been set up as Moridin's counterpart among the females, with her TP access.
Nynaeve has insane skill with Healing. The way Graendal phrases it, someone with the ability to read her compulsions is extremely rare. It might interest you to know that before she figured out that Rand was going to BF Natrin's Barrow, Graendal made a plan to kill Nynaeve.
If you're equal to someone in strength they will not be able to break through your shield once they're cut off. To break a shield, you have to be much STRONGER than the person shielding you, e.g. Logain and Nynaeve's temporary shield, Amys holding Egewene temporarily despite being much weaker than her, and direct comments to that effect by Rand courtesy of Lews Therin.
The more difficult aspect is to cut off the other channeler in the first place. Here I have only your description to go on, but since Sanderson doesn't bother to mention whether Arangar is holding the Source or not it seems likely that he also did not bother to mention whether Graendal used her angreal or not.
If Graendal could cut off Arangar from the Source while he was channeling, and cut off an Aes Sedai at the same time, then imagine what Cyndane - who Graendal herself said is stronger than her - and Lanfear - who Mesaana said is stronger than Cyndane, or any of the strongest male channelers could have done to Arangar.
It seems unlikely that he would have survived this long, if he was that easy to overcome. This is especially troubling given the comment that he was quite strong in the Power, and also given the deduction that pretty much the only reason this rather stupid and unskilled Forsaken has survived for so long was his raw strength in the Power.
It seems more feasible that Graendal used her angreal in this scene, which also allowed her to shield Cyndane and Moghedien together in PoD.
Regarding Graendal being able to use the True Power. It is not so much her being a female counter to Moridin, as Moridin having "deputized" her in tGS, and thus allowing her to use a bit of the True Power as his sidekick. Remember, she apparently said she was only allowed to use a small amount of it. This ties in with Moridin giving her this "just below the Nae'blis" privilege as a reward for her service.
This message last edited by Shannow on 21/09/2010 at 07:29:54 PM
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
- 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
9361 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
- 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
2710 Views
A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
2532 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
2457 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
1463 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
1510 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
- 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
2625 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
- 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
1369 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
1388 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
1468 Views
Regarding Graendal
- 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
2813 Views
a very weak angreal
- 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
2340 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
- 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
2298 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream
- 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
2397 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
2457 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
- 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
2323 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
- 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
2150 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
- 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
2237 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
- 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
2229 Views
I think so, yes.
- 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
2180 Views
I don't think so actually
- 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
2301 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
- 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
2205 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
1212 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
- 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
2076 Views
So here's what happens...
- 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
2629 Views
Thanks. A few comments...
- 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
2112 Views
I don't rule out the angreal...
- 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
2090 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
- 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
2247 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
- 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
2113 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
- 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
2133 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
- 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
2160 Views
How did she know there was a shield?
- 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
2096 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
- 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
2074 Views
Who said "they"?
- 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
2077 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
- 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
2145 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
- 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
1989 Views
Provide evidence?
- 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
2087 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
- 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
2002 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
- 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
1946 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
- 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
2205 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
- 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
2998 Views
So?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
1892 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
- 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
1990 Views
we don't know that
- 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
2051 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
- 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
2033 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
- 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
1924 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
- 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
2056 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
2021 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
2176 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
- 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
4070 Views
Well...
- 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
2052 Views
She says...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
2068 Views
no one is arguing that
- 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
2055 Views
Er...
- 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
2000 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
2818 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
2785 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
- 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
2067 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
2126 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
2015 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
2038 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
2038 Views
Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
2139 Views
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
2139 Views
Really?
- 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
2117 Views
Re: Really?
- 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
1982 Views
That's my point *NM*
- 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
1258 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1310 Views
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1310 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
- 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
1998 Views
Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
2125 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
2003 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
1991 Views
Nope
- 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
1895 Views
Re: Nope
- 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
2039 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
- 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
1922 Views
Well...
- 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
2121 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
2280 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
2097 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
- 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
2061 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield?
- 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
2000 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
- 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
1349 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
- 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
2016 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
1293 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
- 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
1246 Views
Well, exactly!
- 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
2055 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
- 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
2325 Views
What I think happened
- 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
2023 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
1986 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
2097 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
3098 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
3515 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
- 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
2006 Views
she never shielded them
- 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
2000 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
- 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
1943 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
2058 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
1998 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
- 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
2107 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
- 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
1921 Views
Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
2018 Views
Re: Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
1961 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
2068 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
2112 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
- 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
2043 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
- 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
2044 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this
- 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
2281 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
- 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
2115 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
1234 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
2054 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
- 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
2147 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
- 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
2167 Views
I'm happy there wasn't...
- 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
2130 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
2085 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
2236 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
- 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
1980 Views
For the record
- 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
2193 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
1391 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
- 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
2185 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
- 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
2050 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
2228 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
1253 Views
I tend to agree
- 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
2043 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
- 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
2666 Views
Yes, but its still a little off
- 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
2078 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand?
- 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
2216 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
- 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
2285 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
2035 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
1956 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
- 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
1927 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
- 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
2060 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
- 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
1292 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
- 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
1234 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
2211 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
2138 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2200 Views
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2200 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
- 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
2827 Views
No way
- 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
2051 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
- 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
2223 Views

*NM*

*NM*
*NM*