Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
Sidious Send a noteboard - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
Do everything she did without an angreal! Even with her weak angreal she may not have been able to do this! Instead of trying to prove something impossible from the chapter start thinking about what would make Graendal's acts doable. Two options:
1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.
Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!
1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.
Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!
But Graendal does have an angreal. I really can't believe that you're trying to place a definitive value on the power of this object and using it as evidence that Graendal was too weak to do all those things. As another poster said, if the angreal made her only 50% stronger, it would be a more than suitable explanation, and it would make it the weakest known angreal in the series by far.
Harping on the fact that Graendal claims that it's a weak angreal is very poor evidence because Elayne makes a similar statement about her cache of angreal and they appear to provide an immense advantage to the casual reader.
I think you're ignoring a very important fact that a male channeler cannot sense saidar at all, bar the goosebumps. It's like suggesting that Saroiya would have sensed Narishma's weave of Spirit around her for some obscure reason. The channeler only senses a disturbance to their connection when they try to pull on the Source. There are a lot of examples of this, and I'm quite surprised you're trying to refute them all.
I was the poster who made the comment about it making her 50% stronger too ... the point here is that she should not be strong enough without some enhancement to do all the things she did ... this is why I don't accept the "Gasp" as evidence that she cut Aran'gar off from the Power, ... she would have needed the angreal to do that IMO ... this I base on an entire series of hearing that men are stronger than women and that it's harder to shield someone of the opposite sex ... the list goes on ... even IF Graendal was stronger than Aran'gar it's not likely that she's enough stronger to have been able to shield her and Delana and make a Gateway without the angreal since even Nynaeve under less stressful circumstances could not slam a shield on Elayne who is obviously weaker.
As for the sensing a shield, who is to say what someone with as much OP knowledge as the AOL Channelers have can sense? We learned tons of new information about the TP in the same chapter ... we have no indication that Aran'gar couldn't sense that she had been shielded.
We know that the angreal she possessed is amongst the weakest in the series, but have no indication of what it really offered. Another poster commented that Graendal's assessment of the angreal indicates that it must be weak enough to not seem like an enhancement ... I disagree with that, but it's why I phrased the above the way I did.
If that angreal added a 50% lift to her natural strength and she did in fact use it I can believe that she could cut Aran'gar and Delana off and weave the gateway. But without the angreal I find that scenario ridiculous.
A lot of these may be deliberate or casual 'errors' by Brandon. I think someone should ask him this directly.
He may have used Graendal's acquisition of an angreal as an open key to allow her to do anything. All he has to do is say that she's got an angreal, and we can't really refute his claim. Or he can do what RJ used to do... claim that the said person has a Talent.
I think Graendal wove the gateway and tied it off because she says later that she struggles to close it, which implies that she couldn't unravel the knot in time. She then shielded the two at once, which is a monumental feat considering one is a male Forsaken. She then bound them in Air. Never more than two flows at once.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
- 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
9315 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
- 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
2689 Views
A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
2493 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird
- 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
2425 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
1420 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
1490 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
- 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
2596 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
- 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
1340 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
1366 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
- 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
1426 Views
Regarding Graendal
- 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
2775 Views
a very weak angreal
- 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
2308 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
- 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
2268 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream
- 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
2359 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
2421 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
- 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
2294 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
- 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
2117 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
- 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
2200 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
- 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
2197 Views
I think so, yes.
- 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
2147 Views
I don't think so actually
- 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
2275 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
- 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
2175 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
1192 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
- 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
2047 Views
So here's what happens...
- 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
2599 Views
Thanks. A few comments...
- 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
2074 Views
I don't rule out the angreal...
- 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
2060 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
- 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
2219 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
- 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
2078 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
- 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
2095 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
- 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
2119 Views
How did she know there was a shield?
- 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
2067 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
- 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
2047 Views
Who said "they"?
- 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
2044 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
- 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
2116 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
- 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
1957 Views
Provide evidence?
- 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
2062 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
- 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
1969 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
- 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
1913 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
- 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
2177 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
- 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
2971 Views
So?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
1861 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
- 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
1958 Views
we don't know that
- 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
2025 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
- 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
2001 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
- 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
1893 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
- 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
2027 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
1993 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
- 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
2143 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
- 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
4041 Views
Well...
- 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
2028 Views
She says...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
2042 Views
no one is arguing that
- 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
2024 Views
Er...
- 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
1968 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
2788 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
- 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
2749 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
- 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
2035 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
2099 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
- 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
1985 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
2010 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
2010 Views
Re:
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
2103 Views
. The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
- 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
2103 Views
Really?
- 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
2084 Views
Re: Really?
- 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
1963 Views
That's my point *NM*
- 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
1238 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk).
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1290 Views
*NM*
- 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
1290 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
- 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
1965 Views
Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
2089 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
1971 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
- 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
1958 Views
Nope
- 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
1864 Views
Re: Nope
- 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
2007 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
- 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
1891 Views
Well...
- 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
2090 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
2245 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
- 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
2055 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
- 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
2035 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield?
- 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
1968 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
- 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
1331 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
- 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
1988 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
- 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
1272 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
- 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
1223 Views
Well, exactly!
- 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
2028 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
- 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
2286 Views
What I think happened
- 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
1998 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
1958 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
- 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
2072 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
3070 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
- 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
3483 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
- 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
1976 Views
she never shielded them
- 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
1967 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
- 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
1909 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
2033 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
- 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
1966 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
- 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
2076 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
- 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
1891 Views
Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
1987 Views
Re: Mostly agree
- 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
1933 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
2037 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
- 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
2073 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
- 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
2012 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
- 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
2009 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this
- 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
2253 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
- 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
2084 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
1217 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
- 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
2024 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
- 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
2123 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
- 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
2135 Views
I'm happy there wasn't...
- 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
2101 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
2056 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
- 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
2200 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
- 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
1945 Views
For the record
- 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
2161 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
1370 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
- 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
2161 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
- 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
2021 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
- 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
2204 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
- 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
1240 Views
I tend to agree
- 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
2015 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
- 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
2635 Views
Yes, but its still a little off
- 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
2051 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand?
- 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
2184 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
- 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
2250 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
2008 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
- 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
1929 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
- 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
1896 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
- 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
2024 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
- 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
1266 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
- 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
1215 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
2180 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
- 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
2106 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2170 Views
- 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
2170 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
- 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
2799 Views
No way
- 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
2021 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
- 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
2195 Views

*NM*

*NM*
*NM*