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Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM

No one can do that unaided. Not even Rand. Rand cannot even shield a single male Forsaken in a direct attempt if the Forsaken is already holding the Source. He would have to overcome him in a One Power battle first, or else engage in a duel of Spirit of unknown duration (like Nynaeve and Moghedien, Rand and Lanfear or Nynaeve and Talaan).

The examples you give had both channelers ready for a conflict. Here, Aran'gar was completely caught by surprise. That may have made the difference.

And I seriously doubt that Rand can't do the same. Should he just strike out with a shield at an unsuspecting Foresaken, he'd have them shielded with ease. Lanfear herself shielded Rand in tSR, and Rand was holding the source, and nor was he completely weak, since later in that book he matched Asmodean.

There is no way that Graendal could have shielded Arangar unaided if Arangar was already holding the Source, let alone shield Arangar and an Aes Sedai simultaneously.

Nothing says that Graendal isn't strong enough to shield Aran'gar. She was the second strongest woman, whereas Aran'gar was strong, but not at the upper echelons among men.


The more you hold, the more difficult it is to shield you. So if he held only a tiny trickle - small enough that Rand would not sense it on the hill above - then maybe she could. But then, so could Arangar shield Graendal if she was only holding a trickle of saidar, and had her back turned to him. It goes both ways.

So it doesn't really tell us anything about their comparative strengths, if that's what you're trying to get at.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9413 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2741 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2572 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2491 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2320 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2460 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1510 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2585 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1540 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2670 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1448 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1395 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1412 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2518 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1467 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1514 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2401 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3203 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2245 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2550 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2323 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2842 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2437 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2346 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2380 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2317 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2203 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2330 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2429 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2333 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 2154 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2258 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2482 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2354 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2180 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2273 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2261 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2208 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2331 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2237 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1232 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 2106 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1356 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 2160 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2666 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 2149 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 2123 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2283 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 2134 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2165 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 2015 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 2144 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 2164 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2188 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 2127 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 2111 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 2111 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 2174 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 2097 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 2022 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 2124 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 2026 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 2081 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1294 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1127 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1981 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2235 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 3031 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1928 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 2022 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2164 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 2091 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 2017 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 2061 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1953 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 2085 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 2052 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2205 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 4104 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 2093 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 2098 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 2086 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 2030 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2844 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2817 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 2108 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2161 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 2075 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 2065 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2165 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 2146 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 2017 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1281 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1333 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1279 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 2081 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 2040 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 2032 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 2168 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 2033 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 2025 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1923 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 2069 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2179 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 2083 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1960 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 2144 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2317 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 2151 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 2091 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2275 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 2013 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 2104 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 2031 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1374 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 2045 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1317 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1271 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 2085 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2361 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 2054 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 2014 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 2136 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 2121 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 2088 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 2051 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 3132 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3545 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 2039 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 2034 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1974 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 2082 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 2027 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 2027 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 2136 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1955 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 2146 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1987 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 2025 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 2050 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 2001 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 2108 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 2146 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 2069 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 2073 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2184 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1234 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2313 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 2146 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1257 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 2086 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 2176 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 2209 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 2160 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 2115 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 2263 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 2010 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1990 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2302 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2223 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 2082 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2152 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1414 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 2226 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 2077 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2259 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1298 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1431 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 2057 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1277 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 2075 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2692 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 2108 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2285 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2170 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2251 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2198 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 2099 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2238 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2303 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1261 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2470 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 2098 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2156 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2317 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 2064 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1983 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1960 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 2098 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2305 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 2094 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1315 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1259 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2188 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2238 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2168 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 2230 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2847 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2171 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2175 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 2084 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 2258 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1297 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 2106 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2651 Views
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