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And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
Do everything she did without an angreal! Even with her weak angreal she may not have been able to do this! Instead of trying to prove something impossible from the chapter start thinking about what would make Graendal's acts doable. Two options:

1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.

Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 23/09/2010 at 03:59:42 PM
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9464 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2769 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2603 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 2524 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 2351 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 2486 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1534 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2613 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1561 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2705 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1472 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1417 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1449 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2547 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1498 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1536 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2432 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3235 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2276 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2580 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2371 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2868 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2496 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2392 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2416 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2362 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2235 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 2361 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2462 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2371 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 2189 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2284 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2516 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2393 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2207 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2301 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2294 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2238 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2362 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2280 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1253 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 2136 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1376 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 2189 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2694 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 2207 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 2149 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2323 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 2161 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2209 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 2039 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 2191 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 2188 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2219 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 2154 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 2140 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 2149 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 2208 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 2128 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 2063 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 2155 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 2054 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 2114 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1314 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1149 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 2010 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2277 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 3060 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1965 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 2051 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2209 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 2113 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 2049 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 2087 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1981 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 2128 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 2083 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2235 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 4141 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 2125 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 2141 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 2114 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 2059 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2874 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2854 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 2151 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2188 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 2106 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 2097 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2199 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 2173 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 2044 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1304 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1355 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1299 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 2109 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 2070 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 2074 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 2214 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 2067 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 2050 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1949 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 2094 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2208 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 2108 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1994 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 2171 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2369 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 2186 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 2117 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2306 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 2042 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 2130 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 2061 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1394 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 2073 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1337 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1299 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 2118 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 2393 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 2088 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 2043 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 2184 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 2156 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 2117 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 2093 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 3163 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3573 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 2068 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 2061 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 2019 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 2110 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 2054 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 2056 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 2166 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1987 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 2193 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 2026 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 2062 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 2082 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 2035 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 2138 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 2174 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 2100 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 2101 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2214 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1269 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2343 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 2175 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 1278 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 2118 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 2204 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 2245 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 2184 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 2141 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 2292 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 2054 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 2033 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2330 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2249 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 2112 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2179 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1448 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 2256 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 2105 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2285 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1318 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1455 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 2083 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1297 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 2101 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2728 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 2135 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2309 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2192 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2278 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2233 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 2126 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2263 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2359 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1280 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2519 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 2121 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2194 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2363 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 2092 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 2014 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1991 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 2144 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2329 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 2115 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 1337 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 1281 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2217 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2267 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2201 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 2259 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2877 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2198 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2201 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 2111 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 2287 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1313 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 2134 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2693 Views
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