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Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious Send a noteboard - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
Do everything she did without an angreal! Even with her weak angreal she may not have been able to do this! Instead of trying to prove something impossible from the chapter start thinking about what would make Graendal's acts doable. Two options:

1. She had her angreal and it was stronger than we've previously given it credit for
2. Aran'gar was not holding the Power and was caught by surprise. Her Gasp could mean anything.

Your supposition that Graendal's statement of losing objects of the power is silly since she could have had dozen's on ter'angs for all we know!


But Graendal does have an angreal. I really can't believe that you're trying to place a definitive value on the power of this object and using it as evidence that Graendal was too weak to do all those things. As another poster said, if the angreal made her only 50% stronger, it would be a more than suitable explanation, and it would make it the weakest known angreal in the series by far.

Harping on the fact that Graendal claims that it's a weak angreal is very poor evidence because Elayne makes a similar statement about her cache of angreal and they appear to provide an immense advantage to the casual reader.

I think you're ignoring a very important fact that a male channeler cannot sense saidar at all, bar the goosebumps. It's like suggesting that Saroiya would have sensed Narishma's weave of Spirit around her for some obscure reason. The channeler only senses a disturbance to their connection when they try to pull on the Source. There are a lot of examples of this, and I'm quite surprised you're trying to refute them all.


I was the poster who made the comment about it making her 50% stronger too ... the point here is that she should not be strong enough without some enhancement to do all the things she did ... this is why I don't accept the "Gasp" as evidence that she cut Aran'gar off from the Power, ... she would have needed the angreal to do that IMO ... this I base on an entire series of hearing that men are stronger than women and that it's harder to shield someone of the opposite sex ... the list goes on ... even IF Graendal was stronger than Aran'gar it's not likely that she's enough stronger to have been able to shield her and Delana and make a Gateway without the angreal since even Nynaeve under less stressful circumstances could not slam a shield on Elayne who is obviously weaker.

As for the sensing a shield, who is to say what someone with as much OP knowledge as the AOL Channelers have can sense? We learned tons of new information about the TP in the same chapter ... we have no indication that Aran'gar couldn't sense that she had been shielded.

We know that the angreal she possessed is amongst the weakest in the series, but have no indication of what it really offered. Another poster commented that Graendal's assessment of the angreal indicates that it must be weak enough to not seem like an enhancement ... I disagree with that, but it's why I phrased the above the way I did.

If that angreal added a 50% lift to her natural strength and she did in fact use it I can believe that she could cut Aran'gar and Delana off and weave the gateway. But without the angreal I find that scenario ridiculous.


A lot of these may be deliberate or casual 'errors' by Brandon. I think someone should ask him this directly.

He may have used Graendal's acquisition of an angreal as an open key to allow her to do anything. All he has to do is say that she's got an angreal, and we can't really refute his claim. Or he can do what RJ used to do... claim that the said person has a Talent.

I think Graendal wove the gateway and tied it off because she says later that she struggles to close it, which implies that she couldn't unravel the knot in time. She then shielded the two at once, which is a monumental feat considering one is a male Forsaken. She then bound them in Air. Never more than two flows at once.
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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 9179 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2605 Views
A dove, that's weird - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 2376 Views
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Fain is as creepy as ever - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 2430 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1438 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2495 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1331 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1298 Views
I love the borderlanders - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 2369 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1379 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1313 Views
I posted some links here - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 2230 Views
My quick summary - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 3041 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 2085 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 2394 Views
Awesome! - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 2162 Views
Regarding Graendal - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2683 Views
Some things... - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 2235 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 2186 Views
a very weak angreal - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 2203 Views
Even a weak angreal - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 2157 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 2038 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 2256 Views
Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 2142 Views
Re: Probably Slayer - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1967 Views
Audio Book - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 2090 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 2317 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 2191 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 2016 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 2112 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 2094 Views
I think so, yes. - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 2056 Views
I don't think so actually - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 2161 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 2073 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 1146 Views
no she wasn't *NM* - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1257 Views
nope, no power - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1933 Views
So here's what happens... - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 2486 Views
Thanks. A few comments... - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1979 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1986 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 2130 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1980 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 2020 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1870 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1979 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1988 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 2006 Views
How did she know there was a shield? - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1966 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1950 Views
Who said "they"? - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1933 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1870 Views
Provide evidence? - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1964 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1878 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1935 Views
Alright, you win *NM* - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 1205 Views
*NM* - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 1045 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1828 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 2084 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2878 Views
So? - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1754 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1866 Views
Nice catches! - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 2015 Views
we don't know that - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1924 Views
Huh? - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1862 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1908 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1810 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1939 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1899 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 2037 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3932 Views
Well... - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1939 Views
She says... - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1946 Views
no one is arguing that - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1920 Views
Er... - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1881 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2696 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2657 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1936 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 2014 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1895 Views
- 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1910 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 2023 Views
Really? - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1983 Views
Re: Really? - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1857 Views
That's my point *NM* - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 1183 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 1239 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 1189 Views
Re: She says... - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1917 Views
Exactly. - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1887 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1868 Views
Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1994 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1871 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1868 Views
Nope - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1766 Views
Re: Nope - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1922 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 2033 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1922 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1809 Views
Well... - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1974 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 2146 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1954 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 2111 Views
Oh come on.. be real - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1866 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1967 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1875 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1890 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1223 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 1182 Views
Well, exactly! - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1933 Views
What I think happened - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1903 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1869 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1983 Views
Fair point. - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1942 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1935 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1882 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2980 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 3397 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1867 Views
she never shielded them - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1868 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1820 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1937 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1875 Views
LMAO... nice! - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1871 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1979 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1794 Views
I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1971 Views
Re: I would agree - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1814 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1874 Views
Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1870 Views
Re: Mostly agree - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1830 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1908 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1912 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 2020 Views
*NM* - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 1145 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 2155 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 2146 Views
For the record - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 2036 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1930 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 2008 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 2121 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 1201 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1250 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1886 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 1197 Views
I tend to agree - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1919 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2542 Views
Yes, but its still a little off - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1966 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 2111 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 2013 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 2090 Views
She was really surprised and scared. - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 2045 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1926 Views
Quite a bit... - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 2085 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 2147 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 1168 Views
Second best prologue ever... - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 2311 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1951 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 2004 Views
Aran'gar is a tool - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 2155 Views
Yes. s/He was. - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1951 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 2120 Views
- 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 2044 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 2078 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 2011 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2697 Views
I had a similar thought, but... - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 2002 Views
Probably not Sanderson - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 2013 Views
No way - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1930 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 1208 Views
A few nits - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1929 Views
Canadian Download site - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 2481 Views

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