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He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
Demandred, Lanfear, Semirhage, Graendal and Sammael could probably duel one another with unpredictable results, and the result would be 50-50 if they dueled a hundred times. It makes them inferior to Ishamael and Lews Therin, but not to each other.


If Ishamael is superior to the others, I just haven't seen it. The only time he's gained any real advantages has been after Moghedien and Cyndane were mindtrapped and given to him, and that was after he had suffered multiple defeats and been given a new body.

If it came down to an outright fight, and the Dark One commanded them to fight one another to the death using any means necessary, I tend to think Ishamael would be one of the first eliminated - the only thing that seems to keep him from being wiped out is the uneasy amnesty that exists among the Forsaken for most of the series - he shows himself incapable of grasping basic experiences that the others understand very well, most probably because he is partially insane and because of his use of the True Power, probably worse off than many of the male channelers running around insane.

He just never struck me as a legitimate threat in the way Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael, semirhage or Demandred have. Ishamael seems to have suffered the most from the "BS degree in Evil Villainy 101" syndrome.

In fact, I think that there were many Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends who were equal to Lews Therin, all things considered, including Latra Posae Decume - we know Lews Therin's weak points probably better than any channelers at this point, not counting my personal feelings that he is especially attuned to Air, Fire and Spirit with weakness abilities with Water and Earth. He seems to balance quite well with the Forsaken, who were his peers, and channelers of his own comparable potential in terms of capability to channel greater volumes of the Power next to their various skillsets.


I don't really agree with you. I do agree with you that Ishamael has not produced the goods, but I think he is undoubtedly meant to be Rand's counterpart in the Shadow. The series is totally saturated with quotes about his unparalleled power in the Shadow. In fact, if there is anyone we can be sure of, it should be him.

The Guide mentions him as the undoubted top captain general of the Shadow, and probably the first man to turn to the Dark One. He dueled Lews Therin in one of the few known duels of the War of Power in front of the biggest city in the world. He's fought Rand three times, and died, and become the Nae'blis. He commands the other Forsaken. Everything about him suggests that there is something just one step above the others.


RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.

I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.

As for Lews Therin, I think he was equalled as an allround channeler by only a few people. Mesaana's quote that Demandred would be the undoubted best man of the Age if not for Lews Therin is quite a strong statement, and even Lanfear says that Lews Therin could equal any Aes Sedai in power. He was not strong in everything, much like Rand, but he could perform many feats which other Aes Sedai could not, and he was a masterful channeler to the point that he was chosen to be the highest member of the Hall.


I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1886 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 1061 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 1129 Views
Of course... - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 923 Views
I've been thinking the same for years - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 1038 Views
The Big White Book says... - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 1102 Views
Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 1109 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 1019 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 1060 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 977 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 1010 Views
Or... - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 957 Views
Re: Or... - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 919 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 1004 Views
Re: Not Aginor - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 922 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 1028 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 516 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 936 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 1096 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 967 Views
the other reason - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 889 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 892 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1476 Views
Graendal herself says... - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 921 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 980 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 997 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 859 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 922 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 1083 Views
I agree with this - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 1074 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 950 Views
Excellent point *NM* - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 527 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 493 Views
Hm? When? *NM* - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 431 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 469 Views
Not at all - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 996 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 851 Views
I'm not so sure about that - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 931 Views
Totally agree - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 787 Views
I don't agree. - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 1056 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 882 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 444 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 486 Views
Really? - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 920 Views
No falsely... - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 1142 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 1100 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 857 Views
They correlate on some critical points - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 1059 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 811 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 944 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 819 Views
Probably - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 964 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 935 Views
Re: Probably - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 921 Views
Re: Probably - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1265 Views
Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 900 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 870 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 954 Views
I do think Ishamel is special - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 1026 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 990 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 958 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 940 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 908 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 920 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 962 Views
The more interesting question is... - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 853 Views
Hmmm - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 943 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 971 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 789 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 849 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 877 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 931 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 972 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 720 Views
Yup... - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 775 Views
I still like Lanfear more - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 862 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 868 Views
only in love *NM* - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 824 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 964 Views
Agreed - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 850 Views
Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 986 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 898 Views
Hmmm... - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 1095 Views

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