Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.
I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.
I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.
Well I differ from you here. I think that Ishamael's power is well established as a duelist. On most occasions he was trying to convert Rand rather than kill him, and that has nothing to do with combat. I think he's the worst converter to the Shadow I've ever seen, but that was his tactic.
When he finally decided to kill Rand in TDR, he tells him he's given him two chances to convert and he refused, and now he will die. Ishamael then hurled everything from balefire, to every other kind of weave at Rand in the Stone, and Rand was only saved by using one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. I thought that of all the Forsaken battles, this one was the most technically impressive, but it looks like he literally tried every flow against Rand to find his weakness.
It's also important to remember that his nemesis is an extremely powerful ta'veren who bends the pattern around him. I'm not sure if such a man actually can be beaten. Even so, I don't think it's a coincidence that Ishamael was the one to fight Lews Therin in a duel in the War of Power. Otherwise it would have been Demandred or Lanfear if the Shadow had someone better.
I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
Well the Power is a funny thing - it actually is one discipline even if there are many Talents. He was certainly an exceptionally strong and gifted channeler. There were probably a few hundred channelers on his level, and many thousands with special abilities he didn't have. But he was made First among Servants because he was so powerful and because he was a nice guy. Even Moghedien and Be'lal hated that about him.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power
- 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM
1747 Views
The Big White Book says...
- 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM
962 Views
Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM
971 Views
Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM
864 Views
Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM
900 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy
- 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM
822 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar
- 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM
808 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful"
- 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM
898 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM
767 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win
- 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM
1305 Views
Graendal herself says...
- 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM
786 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power
- 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM
774 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM
906 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters
- 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM
786 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM
440 Views
Not at all
- 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM
847 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM*
- 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM
392 Views
Apparently only the third time counts 
*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
427 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
450 Views
*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
427 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
450 Views
Really?
- 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM
757 Views
No falsely... 
- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
983 Views
- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
983 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much
- 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM
726 Views
They correlate on some critical points
- 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM
829 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to.
- 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM
675 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing
- 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM
816 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers
- 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM
689 Views
Probably
- 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM
834 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael
- 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM
778 Views
I do think Ishamel is special
- 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM
860 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
820 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
795 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM
781 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM
777 Views
The more interesting question is...
- 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM
726 Views
Hmmm
- 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM
752 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar.
- 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM
826 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM*
- 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM
618 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree!
- 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM
715 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks
- 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM
745 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal
- 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM
793 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too.
- 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM
773 Views
To me, she is the most lethal.
- 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM
599 Views
I still like Lanfear more
- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
733 Views
- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
733 Views
only in love *NM*
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien
- 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM
820 Views
Agreed
- 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM
718 Views
Ummm... how do we know?
- 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM
840 Views