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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM
I tend to think Lews Therin was made the First because of his leadership abilities - he seems to have had some rare Talents, but none of which were as impressive as the skills possessed by the Forsaken and some of Rand's Third Age companions. Perhaps he was a consensus builder, and a capable leader (ie: somewhat like a Blue Ajah Amyrlin - one of their greatest Sisters was considered to be Eadyth who was said to be "one of the most capable Blues in the last one hundred years"...as an Ajah, they seem to prize versatility). Because choosing your leader on the basis of One Power strength doesn't seem to gel with their society, in which strength wasn't as important due to the uniquitousness of Circles. If people referred to leadership qualities, I'd not raise any objections, but the reasons people trot out for Lews to be awarded "Best Man Ever!" always have to do with Talents, OP strength and t'a'veren status - none of which have anything to do with his personality or skills.


I agree and disagree. I also think that LTT was chosen as the First among Servants because of his leadership skills - he was akin to a world leader anyway. There is another dimension, though, and that is the One Power. I think that the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends paid quite a lot of attention to ability with their gifts. For instance, the only reason that Balthamel wasn't fired from his job was because of his strength in the Power. This means that they placed influence on the person's ability, which isn't very utopian at all. It's also convenient that Lews Therin is the strongest possible channeler in the Power, which means it's difficult to say that his ability in saidin wasn't relevant. Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe he wasn't a very skilled man too. Even you say that the Forsaken were very skilled and Talented, and yet none of them ever managed to overcome him, and still consider him to be their toughest physical opponent.

That said, Ishamael still lurks somewhere in the evil supervillain category. Basically, he sucks. And I haven't seen anything to prove otherwise. His whole backstory revolves around being defeated again and again - we don't even have any stories of his successes during the War of Power, unlike the other Forsaken. The only "success" he had was turning Hawkwing against Aes Sedai and the formation of the Black Ajah - both of which are rather lackluster in comparison to Lews Therin, Latra Posae or a Rashima Kerenmosa. So his only claim to villainy is being a philosopher who is somewhat of a nihilist (?).


Well it's obvious why Ishamael is like that - his victory would mean the end of the Light, and no story for us to read. If he defeated Lews Therin at the duel, or Rand at any stage, that would kind of be the end of everything. He may be unable to defeat Lews Therin but that doesn't mean he's a total loser - he might just be 2nd to Lews Therin. There's a fictional component to this villainy.


Which makes Demandred 3rd in line, and gives credence to the overall feelings of impotence and lack of coherence among the characters - why isn't Demandred upset that Ishamael ranks over him? I believe it is because RJ overlooked this somewhat, because logically, someone who doesn't like being second would hate even more to be third, and Demandred as a character is somewhat compromised by this. We don't need Ishamael to kill Rand - we just need him to do something besides gloat and appear with saa in his eyes.


Except Demandred doesn't think he's third. He thinks only Lews Therin is a greater man that he. Unless you mean his submission to the Nae'blis, which grates all the Forsaken I think.
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power Sidious - 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM 1844 Views
Some thoughts about Semmy Lordling - 12/09/2009 09:59:50 PM 1028 Views
Re: Some thoughts about Semmy Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:33:28 AM 1091 Views
Of course... Digital_Eon - 13/09/2009 08:36:39 AM 883 Views
I've been thinking the same for years Dragonsworn - 12/09/2009 11:25:02 PM 994 Views
The Big White Book says... Yvves - 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM 1061 Views
Not Aginor Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM 1067 Views
Re: Not Aginor NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM 967 Views
Re: Not Aginor Sidious - 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM 1020 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy Shannow - 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM 940 Views
We must either use all the quotes from the BWB or none of them Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:07:46 PM 971 Views
Or... Shannow - 13/09/2009 08:41:23 PM 912 Views
Re: Or... Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:46:52 AM 885 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM 939 Views
Re: Not Aginor NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 08:17:28 PM 879 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful" Lanfear - 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM 986 Views
I agree 101%. *NM* Yvves - 14/09/2009 03:49:51 AM 498 Views
I think power is much more than raw strength Sidious - 14/09/2009 05:00:10 AM 894 Views
I agree for the most part, but disagree on one thing. Lanfear - 14/09/2009 07:52:10 PM 1048 Views
Re: The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power Bulgakov - 12/09/2009 11:48:03 PM 924 Views
the other reason NaClH2O - 13/09/2009 03:24:24 PM 853 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then? Shannow - 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM 857 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM 1428 Views
Graendal herself says... Shannow - 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM 882 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:48:37 AM 938 Views
Doesn't Graendal have an Angreal now? Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/09/2009 03:29:10 AM 962 Views
Re: Graendal herself says... Lanfear - 15/09/2009 05:36:53 PM 802 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power beetnemesis - 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM 888 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? Watcher - 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM 1039 Views
I agree with this Sidious - 13/09/2009 06:15:24 PM 1032 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters beetnemesis - 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM 909 Views
Excellent point *NM* Shannow - 13/09/2009 10:35:08 PM 511 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM 480 Views
Hm? When? *NM* beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:04:10 PM 413 Views
tPoD, when she compelled Cyndane and Moghedien. *NM* fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 10:19:23 PM 457 Views
Not at all Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 955 Views
Using Compulsion on someone doesn't seem mechanically different beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:03:41 PM 810 Views
I'm not so sure about that Sidious - 14/09/2009 09:36:45 PM 888 Views
Totally agree Shannow - 14/09/2009 10:26:07 PM 729 Views
I don't agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:33:04 PM 1010 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:34:24 PM 851 Views
But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM 428 Views
Apparently only the third time counts *NM* Sidious - 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM 469 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM* fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM 493 Views
Really? Shannow - 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM 872 Views
No falsely... fionwe1987 - 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM 1099 Views
That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell Sidious - 14/09/2009 04:56:15 AM 1054 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM 819 Views
They correlate on some critical points Sidious - 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM 1004 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM 771 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM 911 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM 773 Views
Probably Sidious - 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM 925 Views
Re: Probably RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/09/2009 07:19:03 PM 897 Views
Re: Probably Sidious - 16/09/2009 08:59:31 PM 869 Views
Re: Probably RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/09/2009 07:03:09 PM 1208 Views
Ahh the old debate... fionwe1987 - 17/09/2009 12:42:36 AM 862 Views
Re: Ahh the old debate... Sidious - 17/09/2009 05:26:52 AM 824 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM 895 Views
I do think Ishamel is special Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM 987 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM 940 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM 913 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM 896 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM 873 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM 883 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special. Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM 888 Views
The more interesting question is... AgentOrange - 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM 816 Views
Hmmm Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM 885 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar. fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM 924 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM* Sidious - 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM 745 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree! fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM 805 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks beetnemesis - 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM 840 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal Sidious - 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM 888 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too. fionwe1987 - 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM 919 Views
To me, she is the most lethal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM 681 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 06:39:20 PM 733 Views
I still like Lanfear more Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM 827 Views
Bah! She's an idiot! fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 07:06:06 PM 827 Views
only in love *NM* Sidious - 15/09/2009 07:23:29 PM 786 Views
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien Lanfear - 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM 918 Views
Agreed Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM 811 Views
Ummm... how do we know? fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM 949 Views
Re: Ummm... how do we know? Sidious - 15/09/2009 06:56:21 PM 856 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 15/09/2009 07:07:45 PM 1041 Views
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