Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
Sidious Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM
I tend to think Lews Therin was made the First because of his leadership abilities - he seems to have had some rare Talents, but none of which were as impressive as the skills possessed by the Forsaken and some of Rand's Third Age companions. Perhaps he was a consensus builder, and a capable leader (ie: somewhat like a Blue Ajah Amyrlin - one of their greatest Sisters was considered to be Eadyth who was said to be "one of the most capable Blues in the last one hundred years"...as an Ajah, they seem to prize versatility). Because choosing your leader on the basis of One Power strength doesn't seem to gel with their society, in which strength wasn't as important due to the uniquitousness of Circles. If people referred to leadership qualities, I'd not raise any objections, but the reasons people trot out for Lews to be awarded "Best Man Ever!" always have to do with Talents, OP strength and t'a'veren status - none of which have anything to do with his personality or skills.
I agree and disagree. I also think that LTT was chosen as the First among Servants because of his leadership skills - he was akin to a world leader anyway. There is another dimension, though, and that is the One Power. I think that the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends paid quite a lot of attention to ability with their gifts. For instance, the only reason that Balthamel wasn't fired from his job was because of his strength in the Power. This means that they placed influence on the person's ability, which isn't very utopian at all. It's also convenient that Lews Therin is the strongest possible channeler in the Power, which means it's difficult to say that his ability in saidin wasn't relevant. Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe he wasn't a very skilled man too. Even you say that the Forsaken were very skilled and Talented, and yet none of them ever managed to overcome him, and still consider him to be their toughest physical opponent.
That said, Ishamael still lurks somewhere in the evil supervillain category. Basically, he sucks. And I haven't seen anything to prove otherwise. His whole backstory revolves around being defeated again and again - we don't even have any stories of his successes during the War of Power, unlike the other Forsaken. The only "success" he had was turning Hawkwing against Aes Sedai and the formation of the Black Ajah - both of which are rather lackluster in comparison to Lews Therin, Latra Posae or a Rashima Kerenmosa. So his only claim to villainy is being a philosopher who is somewhat of a nihilist (?).
Well it's obvious why Ishamael is like that - his victory would mean the end of the Light, and no story for us to read. If he defeated Lews Therin at the duel, or Rand at any stage, that would kind of be the end of everything. He may be unable to defeat Lews Therin but that doesn't mean he's a total loser - he might just be 2nd to Lews Therin. There's a fictional component to this villainy.
Which makes Demandred 3rd in line, and gives credence to the overall feelings of impotence and lack of coherence among the characters - why isn't Demandred upset that Ishamael ranks over him? I believe it is because RJ overlooked this somewhat, because logically, someone who doesn't like being second would hate even more to be third, and Demandred as a character is somewhat compromised by this. We don't need Ishamael to kill Rand - we just need him to do something besides gloat and appear with saa in his eyes.
Except Demandred doesn't think he's third. He thinks only Lews Therin is a greater man that he. Unless you mean his submission to the Nae'blis, which grates all the Forsaken I think.
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Fan of Lanfear
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The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power
- 12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM
1865 Views
The Big White Book says...
- 12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM
1079 Views
Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM
1087 Views
Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM
992 Views
Re: Not Aginor
- 13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM
1040 Views
Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy
- 13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM
960 Views
But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar
- 14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM
981 Views
It all depends on how you define "powerful"
- 14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM
1002 Views
So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM
869 Views
Graendal could fight Lanfear and win
- 13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM
1454 Views
Graendal herself says...
- 13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM
899 Views
Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power
- 13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM
907 Views
Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
- 13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM
1059 Views
Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters
- 13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM
926 Views
But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM
487 Views
Not at all
- 14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM
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But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM*
- 13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM
433 Views
Apparently only the third time counts 
*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
476 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
498 Views
*NM*
- 13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
476 Views
But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
- 13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
498 Views
Really?
- 13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM
896 Views
No falsely... 
- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
1120 Views
- 13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
1120 Views
And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much
- 14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM
836 Views
They correlate on some critical points
- 14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM
1027 Views
That's not exactly what I'm referring to.
- 15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM
787 Views
But then we are discussing the same thing
- 15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM
930 Views
I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers
- 16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM
793 Views
Probably
- 16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM
946 Views
I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael
- 14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM
921 Views
I do think Ishamel is special
- 14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM
1009 Views
He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
965 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
936 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM
915 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM
891 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 04:53:00 PM
902 Views
Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
- 15/09/2009 06:47:45 PM
930 Views
The more interesting question is...
- 14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM
832 Views
Hmmm
- 14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM
919 Views
I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar.
- 14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM
946 Views
Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM*
- 14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM
764 Views
Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree!
- 14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM
823 Views
They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks
- 14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM
858 Views
I've never underestimated Graendal
- 14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM
906 Views
Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too.
- 14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM
940 Views
To me, she is the most lethal.
- 15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM
699 Views
I still like Lanfear more
- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
845 Views
- 15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
845 Views
only in love *NM*
Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien
- 15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM
939 Views
Agreed
- 15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM
833 Views
Ummm... how do we know?
- 15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM
968 Views