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Yeah, you're right about the fish - I was reaching (and typed too fast to think) RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 10/02/2011 05:30:29 PM
Sorry, it was a messy post - was at work on a busy day

Basically I was saying that the Grail legend had Messianic overtones and connections, because you could look at many aspects of them, and their connection to characters and places in Christian lore, to see glimpses of an attempt to reconcile early Christianity with Welsh and Celtic mythology. It's not easy to summarize, because there are a lot of variants of the legends with different forms written by various writers over time (the most famous are Chretien de Troyes and Sir Mallory, who wrote 'L'Morte d'Arthur' but I'll try my best so that you can see where I was coming from.

According to ancient traditions regarding inheritance, the reigning king became one with the land by marrying the queen, which may indicate a matrilineal chain of succession, where the matriarch holds lands and titles, and her consort inherits rulership of these through her. So the queen was synonymous with the land, and the king was her chosen consort. This is the connection that later came to be known as the identification of the Fisher King with the health and wellbeing of the land. There are some interpretations that this is why Queen Gwenevere was so important to Camelot; once the union between her and Arthur were severed, he no longer had the right to reign, and the land suffered.

The title 'Messios' was used to refer to the Fisher King in the 'Perlesvaus', where it could be seen as an attempt to render 'Messiah' into the language and culture of the ancient Welsh and/or Celtic legends. King Bran the Blessed (who is also called 'Bron' in some myths) is mentioned as having received a wound in his thigh, and he spent most of his time fishing. According other legends mentioning Bron, he was called The Rich Fisher, because he attended to Jesus and the disciples at the last supper. In 'The Romance of Perceval/Didot Perceval), the chapter 'The Castle of the Fisher King', states that King Bron was Percevals' grandfather, and that he was the current guardian of the Grail. This idea had appeared before, in the 'Mabinogion' - Bran was said to possess the magical cauldron of healing. The holy grail or sangraal seems to have been identified with their legends of the magical cauldron. King Pellas in these legends also has a connection to Biblical lore - he was said to be the direct descendant of Joshua.

The Arthurian legends later developed to suggest that he would return as a messiah to restore justice and health to the land, which is parallel to the role Jesus' return would have. You could even look at the variants of this aspect of the legend, in which Arthur is said to run with the Wild Hunt as an Arthurian version of the Book of Revelation.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
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Rand is the Great Serpent - 08/02/2011 04:21:32 AM 1806 Views
Yeah, that seems logical, funny to see rand bite himself in the ass :p *NM* - 08/02/2011 06:31:44 AM 523 Views
I want to reply and say that's not exactly how I picture it, but I don't want to be dirty. *NM* - 08/02/2011 06:50:17 AM 566 Views
there once was a man from nantucket? *NM* - 08/02/2011 07:18:47 AM 483 Views
Bwah ha ha! Dirty minds think alike! *NM* - 08/02/2011 03:41:30 PM 463 Views
That actually seems cosmically plausible - but I really hope this is not the case - 08/02/2011 03:27:29 PM 1143 Views
But that has always been the case. I am astounded that it isn't recognized more often... - 08/02/2011 03:58:24 PM 1011 Views
This. There's a reason one of his archetypes is the Fisher King. *NM* - 08/02/2011 07:00:05 PM 522 Views
The issue is that the Fisher King story is about the Land, not the People - 08/02/2011 08:02:24 PM 925 Views
A good example - 08/02/2011 08:27:44 PM 947 Views
None of this is contradicted by what I have posited - 08/02/2011 09:16:48 PM 866 Views
But the chess analogy is what I'm seeing - the Dragon is necessary in degree not in total. - 09/02/2011 02:42:15 PM 1006 Views
Yes, those are the rules in chess... - 10/02/2011 05:34:25 AM 921 Views
The Fisher King is not a messianic myth. - 08/02/2011 10:07:44 PM 983 Views
Fisher King title and legends are connected to the Messianic mythos - 09/02/2011 09:47:14 PM 1174 Views
The disciples, not Jesus, were the "fishers of men." EDITED. - 09/02/2011 10:08:24 PM 831 Views
Yeah, you're right about the fish - I was reaching (and typed too fast to think) - 10/02/2011 05:30:29 PM 835 Views
Re: But that has always been the case. I am astounded that it isn't recognized more often... - 09/02/2011 07:47:14 AM 917 Views
You two are like a married couple without the benefit of the makeup sex. - 09/02/2011 09:30:10 AM 1073 Views
*NM* - 10/02/2011 02:53:17 AM 417 Views
*NM* - 10/02/2011 02:52:28 PM 485 Views
Huh? No. You are so off it's not even funny. - 09/02/2011 03:16:05 AM 1078 Views
Looks like somebody hasn't read The Gathering Storm. - 09/02/2011 06:17:55 AM 963 Views
Re: Looks like somebody hasn't read The Gathering Storm. - 09/02/2011 06:20:21 AM 970 Views
Atop Dragonmount, for one... - 09/02/2011 07:36:56 AM 990 Views
I'm exhausted, so I may be misremembering. - 09/02/2011 09:27:18 AM 949 Views
That was Tam. - 09/02/2011 05:09:45 PM 1005 Views
That is a key difference. - 09/02/2011 06:38:24 PM 829 Views
Re: Atop Dragonmount, for one... - 09/02/2011 03:12:02 PM 974 Views
Not at all! - 10/02/2011 02:58:39 AM 869 Views
You sound like Ishamael - 09/02/2011 02:38:52 PM 953 Views
Re: You sound like Ishamael - 09/02/2011 03:17:58 PM 934 Views
I'm definitely not confusing this with the real world roflmao - 09/02/2011 03:54:04 PM 1033 Views
Re: I'm definitely not confusing this with the real world roflmao - 09/02/2011 06:10:01 PM 1025 Views
Seems to me that you're confused. - 09/02/2011 08:27:06 PM 777 Views
Seems to me that YOU'RE confused. - 10/02/2011 02:09:41 AM 958 Views
You might actually want to read what people wrote. - 10/02/2011 03:13:52 PM 848 Views
The amount of elitism on this board would be depressing if it weren't so damned funny. - 09/02/2011 09:18:13 PM 895 Views
What depresses me... - 09/02/2011 11:23:13 PM 826 Views
I didn't mean to hijack it - other replies did - 10/02/2011 02:51:35 PM 907 Views
It is of little consequence - 10/02/2011 05:36:40 PM 875 Views
Relax homeboy. It was a joke. *NM* - 10/02/2011 02:07:55 AM 498 Views
I guess the DO just has "Serpent Envy?" *NM* - 12/02/2011 01:13:40 PM 434 Views
*NM* - 12/02/2011 02:47:09 PM 450 Views

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