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Re: Just a general comment... Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM
I could and do disagree with a number of the individual points you raise in this post, but I think we will be going around in circles if I address each one again. We know where we both stand with respect to this issue.

But I do want to approach this from a broader perspective. When I look at the effort involved in constructing a decent plot, and creating a story with strong, menacing villains and a sense of tension for the reader, then I try to think how best the characters could be used to provide a good climax to the story.

In all honesty, I would find it peculiar if the build up that has gone into Demandred's persona is wasted in the final volume. I confess that the biggest reason for my interest in Demandred is the severe lack of decent villains in this series. Demandred has the sense of mystery, the aura of greatness and the necessary attributes to rescue what is left of the series.

The mad men, pleasure seeking women and other incompetent members of the Forsaken have severely damaged this series. The lack of strong villains is so noticeable that RJ had to come out himself and defend the bad guys with his famous reference to the Light being a boxer that is down and out and left with only a last desperate punch in the final round to try and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Frankly, that is not the sense that one gets when confronted with the comical villains in this series. Sure, the PLOT may lead towards the Shadow growing stronger, but the CHARACTERIZATION has not contributed to that in the slightest.

RJ has gone overboard in portraying the Forsaken as flawed and banal. This series NEEDS some kick-ass villainy and my hopes are pinned on Demandred because, frankly, there is no one else left. He is the one remaining Forsaken who has not been openly humiliated, portrayed in a subservient role or as otherwise having failed spectacularly.

And the fact that he was "the second greatest man of the Age of Legends" means that there is decent material to work with if you want to construct a strong villain.

Anyway, that is my overarching point of view, without delving into individual attributes as we have done a million times before - and will no doubt do again as more information is revealed.


Trust me, no one in the whole world understands what you are saying better than I do. The lack of decent villainy is my greatest disappointment in the series. When I first read WoT I was enthralled by the potentially legendary villainy who have all been thrown down the toilet without the loss of a single main character of the Light. The theme that good always wins is so saccharin it can knot even the strongest stomach.

That said, this is why I'm convinced I'm right and you're not - because I've accepted now that this is how RJ views the world, and his own fantasy world too. The Forsaken have never achieved anything of note despite his ridiculous contention that they're winning the race. Why should Demandred be different? He won't be. You're totally right that the series needs an act of supreme villainy but I don't think it will happen. It's just too much to ask for when RJ has humiliated/castrated/killed/snuffed almost every other villain of note. The Shadow are more of a parody than a true organization of terror. Consider how ridiculous Mesaana has become. I truly used to have some high regard of her as a villain, but she's a total idiot now and she speaks like a child. In LoC she was a considerably easier villain to read about.

Forsaken deaths are almost always humiliating, but thematic as to the nature of evil and good. It all started when we were introduced to Balthamel who couldn't even deflect a Nym from killing him. After that Aginor actually burnt himself out - and we were told right then that he was 2nd only to LTT. Even then I recall my stomach groaning as the inevitable sewer for villainy opened and the FS number decreased to 11. After that we saw Be'lal die to a 3rd Age AS which opened the floodgates to all future FS deaths... Cadsuane could do the same to Demandred for all we know. We saw Rahvin burned by Nynaeve, we saw Sammael eaten by Mashadar, Aginor killed again etc. I waited for five years for the terror of Semirhage to show her face, but she shot a single fireball and that was it. We saw an almost untrained Nynaeve defeat Moghedien with all her 2nd age knowledge. In short, it's a joke.

I'm only consoled by Lanfear, who luckily is my favourite character, who put on the most spectacular of duels with Rand. She killed everyone who was not Rand, or severely injured them, and then put him on his knees with almost shakespearean drama. It was everything I ever wanted from the series, and she didn't even die - she merely vanished. Had Lanfear been knifed by Moiraine or the equivalent, there is no doubt that I would have stopped reading the series.

Now the second greatest man from the AOL is a feat which is appealing, and that's why I do think he'll show his strategic vision and prowess. As a channeler I don't think he's better than Lanfear, Sammael, Semirhage or Graendal - so I don't think you'll get much more there. The Cleansing threw the Forsaken into the battleground and they all suffered to greater or lesser extents. If there was any evidence that Demandred was set up to be the grand display at the end of the series, I would almost welcome it, but I think he hasn't been shown to be superior to the other six, and RJ will give him a parallel plot, which is always disappointing to me. But it always happens. After Semirhage, I don't have much hope for anything. I don't think Graendal will achieve much, but she'll probably die in this book.

I understand your emotions and your obsession with Demandred becoming something. You have such high hopes for him as a villain, but surely the other Forsaken taught you a lesson of what to expect?
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 20/09/2009 at 10:04:11 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3491 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 350 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 900 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 349 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 354 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 762 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 780 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 724 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 750 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 849 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 457 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 936 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 931 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 850 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 866 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 447 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 405 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 732 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 850 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 910 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 877 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 892 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 814 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 733 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 879 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 798 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 720 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 784 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 755 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 938 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 436 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 749 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 700 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 798 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 711 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 868 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 704 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 1032 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 889 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 871 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 864 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 489 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 824 Views
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Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 837 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 847 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 412 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 920 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 903 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 990 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 983 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 938 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 915 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 905 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 379 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 899 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 814 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 814 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 885 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 735 Views
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The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 911 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 802 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 675 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 667 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 811 Views
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Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 788 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 861 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 853 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 729 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 798 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 703 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 725 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 735 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 901 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 750 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 759 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 659 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 693 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 767 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 708 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 853 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 907 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 800 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 861 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 855 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 911 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 733 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 818 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 718 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 703 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 743 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 795 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 776 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 635 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 339 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 796 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 775 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 904 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 821 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 894 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1687 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 763 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 669 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 752 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 779 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 643 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 846 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 758 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 812 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 719 Views

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