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Re: depends how you look at it Gartax Send a noteboard - 20/03/2012 12:51:48 PM
The
If my memory serve. RJ says that both entities are equal in power.



He never said any such thing. All he ever said was that the nature of the two forces is such they are equal in nature (he never spoke of power) and totally opposite at the the same time and could no co-exist in the same space. If you force a quantity of both together, they destroy each other. This is what happened at the Cleansing, the Taint of saidin and Mashadar/SL destroyed one another. All that remains of Mashadar/its taint is with Fain and his dagger that weren't there and weren't destroyed.

Mashadar was hardly the equal of Shai'tan. The taint on saidin was but a small portion of Shai'tan's total power and it was enough to destroy the whole of Mashadar. That Shadar Logoth was a match for the Taint is no coincidence, the Wheel made Shadar Logoth for that very purpose - the sacrifice to get rid of the DO's taint. Perhaps this weakened Shai'tan's power forever, but it changes nothing since Mashadar was a corrupted force from within Creation, so if Shai'tan made a permanent loss of his total energy then, so did the Creator.

Fain's corruptive powers are definitely growing, but he would have to corrupt all of Creation to match Shai'tan's power. The best Fain might "achieve", I would guess, is to have grown powerful enough that a clash with Shaidar Haran would destroy both Fain and SH. I think this is more or less the purpose of Fain and here's why: much like there was a taint on saidin, when Rand manages to make the Pattern impenetrable to Shai'tan again, there will be a residual amount of Shai'tan's "power"/influence etc. left trapped inside - which may very well include the very creature imprinted with Shai'tan's mind... Shaidar Haran. What he could do then is theorical. For all we know, what's left of the TP "inside" Creation, for instance that in Shadowspawn and such, in the Blight and so on might be enough for SH to draw it all (killing all Shadowspawn, absorbing all the maintains the Blight etc.) to attempt to drill a new Bore. Totally theorical, as I said. I don't know exactly why what has been touched by the TP remaining after the sealing (or at the very moment of the sealing) must be destroyed but it sounds very likely it has to, and that's the reason why Fain exists, I think. I think Fain's power by the time of the sealing will be equal to the residue of the True Power/Shai'tan left inside. They'll destroy each other, leaving Creation clean of the DO's touch again, as before the Bore (or even as before the weakness in the pattern appeared, if that weakness is not a permanent feature that remains there always. I suspect it is).


Thematically, Fain represents what happens when those who fight for Creation make themselves as evil as the Shadow to fight it. It gives them the power to destroy the Shadow, but this comes with the destruction of the Light at the same time. Fighting for Creation rather means embracing it fully, and find a way to restore the dividing line between Shadow and Light. Mashadar rather rejects life, and in death grows to absorb all the light to throw himself at the Shadow, destroying for good both forces.

Fain represents self-destruction, one of the two traps Rand very nearly fell into during TGS. First, he gave in to the Dark One to save Min, then he took the path of Shadar Logoth, of mistrust, hatred etc. to the point he nearly killed his own father and on Dragonmount he considered denying Shai'tan his victory by destroying Creation. For several books then, Rand more and more was embracing the ways of the Shadow to fight the Shadow. It had reached the point where he walked, he corrupted. This didn't come from Shai'tan or the True Power, this was Rand, and a power all too similar to Mashadar. Rand was becoming his own walking "Shadar Logoth".

Fain is not like Shai'tan, he's grown into something more like a Dark Dragon. "Dark Rand" is now gone with his epiphany and he's totally become the Champion of the Creator. Fain is what remains of that "theme", but unless he manages to turn the whole world in to SL, he won't ever be a match for Shai'tan, and he wouldn't take his place... Fain would corrupt Creation, and then Shai'tan an Fain would destroy one another.... It would be the end of everything... Shai'tan and Creator alike.



I was convince that somewhere it says that either one can't win a direct fight or something like that.

Anyhow is it not true that both entity are equally big? just like Ying/Yang?

If so, if X amount from both, put together, get destroyed and nothing remains. If both enties are equaly big, than if both are put in direct contact they are both destroyed. Thus being equal in power, as for determine if creation force is stronger than destruction, it is a matter of perception.
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What's so special about Callandor? - 06/03/2012 07:31:40 PM 2003 Views
Honestly, I'm more curious about the "Dragon-only" barrier that surrounded it - 06/03/2012 09:16:15 PM 941 Views
I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 06/03/2012 09:56:02 PM 1002 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 04:11:21 AM 1079 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 10:31:39 AM 904 Views
Re: I also think the flaw might be deliberate - 07/03/2012 10:55:56 PM 938 Views
RJ addressed this ... I had a similar thought several years back and this quote was floated my way - 07/03/2012 04:18:01 AM 947 Views
Hmm.... - 07/03/2012 01:50:07 PM 873 Views
Very similar to what you are getting at as I recall - 07/03/2012 02:00:56 PM 758 Views
Using the True Power to win Tarmon Gai'don goes against every moral in the series. - 07/03/2012 07:00:02 AM 816 Views
actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 10:36:03 AM 717 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 06:02:48 PM 776 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 06:18:16 PM 739 Views
If anything the Dark One WANTS Lews Therin to use the TP *NM* - 07/03/2012 09:43:20 PM 505 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 07/03/2012 11:38:56 PM 908 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 10/03/2012 11:52:23 AM 917 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 10/03/2012 06:40:00 PM 770 Views
Have to agree with you on this - 12/03/2012 01:17:06 AM 792 Views
Re: Have to agree with you on this - 12/03/2012 02:36:13 PM 752 Views
Fain has become so much more than human. We have no real sense of the limits of his power - 18/03/2012 11:21:54 PM 640 Views
Shai'tan is the opposite half of the Creator. - 19/03/2012 01:44:31 AM 636 Views
I actually don't see it that way - 19/03/2012 03:37:26 AM 784 Views
depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 10:41:28 AM 832 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 01:07:21 PM 609 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 19/03/2012 08:12:17 PM 709 Views
Odds are you are correct - 19/03/2012 11:45:03 PM 583 Views
Re: depends how you look at it - 20/03/2012 12:51:48 PM 547 Views
The DO did not not destroy Mashadar alone - 19/03/2012 11:42:21 PM 612 Views
That's not correct. - 20/03/2012 01:55:05 AM 610 Views
Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 01:11:17 PM 861 Views
Re: Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 04:27:33 PM 537 Views
Re: Saidin and the True Power both touched Mashadar - 20/03/2012 04:57:08 PM 874 Views
You explantion is - 20/03/2012 06:17:52 PM 654 Views
Agreed *NM* - 19/03/2012 11:40:40 PM 326 Views
RJ Quote: - 19/03/2012 06:52:12 PM 587 Views
Exactly - 19/03/2012 08:54:22 PM 898 Views
Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 19/03/2012 11:48:20 PM 599 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 01:06:20 PM 602 Views
My point with imagination is simply that destruction only does 1 thing - 20/03/2012 01:14:55 PM 748 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 04:35:17 PM 595 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 04:59:13 PM 582 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 20/03/2012 08:57:35 PM 695 Views
Re: Personally I view it more as Creation v. Destruction - 21/03/2012 01:09:13 PM 640 Views
Yep . - 21/03/2012 04:51:15 PM 603 Views
Re: actually self-sacrifice is one of the Dragon's principle virtues - 14/03/2012 12:15:36 PM 697 Views
except the TP is not just a tool. - 14/03/2012 01:41:17 PM 694 Views
No, the Choedan Kal was a tool. - 14/03/2012 05:20:53 PM 535 Views
Sounds like the One Ring - 04/05/2012 03:55:01 PM 738 Views
I totally agree with you on both issues Ben - 07/03/2012 11:44:42 PM 864 Views
No, I don't agree - 10/03/2012 12:11:37 PM 799 Views
That makes no sense... - 10/03/2012 09:21:19 PM 620 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 11/03/2012 12:25:53 AM 659 Views
Name an existing well that has that much power, though. - 11/03/2012 01:11:40 AM 594 Views
He makes a good point though. - 11/03/2012 05:49:59 AM 641 Views
Yes, but... - 11/03/2012 06:17:25 AM 596 Views
Re: Yes, but... - 11/03/2012 06:47:43 PM 610 Views
I found a couple of quote - 12/03/2012 12:00:36 AM 826 Views
Yeah, I looked through Terez' quote database. - 12/03/2012 12:46:38 AM 637 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 11/03/2012 08:54:11 AM 779 Views
Re: That makes no sense... - 12/03/2012 02:15:19 PM 851 Views
Re: No, I don't agree - 12/03/2012 01:49:10 PM 819 Views
How the Three can become One using the True Power...mindtraps of Moggy and Cyndane... - 12/03/2012 06:04:22 PM 688 Views
Whether it happens or not, it might explain the choice of mind trap victims - 13/03/2012 06:43:45 AM 792 Views
Re: Whether it happens or not, it might explain the choice of mind trap victims - 13/03/2012 05:19:21 PM 623 Views
That's what I meant - 18/03/2012 11:13:19 PM 728 Views

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