We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
Because Rand will save existence itself from Shai'tan, anything and everything that happens does so only because Rand allowed it to be preventing the total annihilation of everything.
You cannot take it so literally as the actions of only one person that matter. Rand has set in motion dozens of courses of action that probably end with a Prophesy fulfilled, characters have spoken about how the Prophesies are so cryptic he could have fulfilled dozens without them even knowing it. If Rand does not save existence then by default nothing else can happen.
And YES by saving existence itself Rand is indirectly responsible for anything that happens after. Clearly we see potential for people to make their own choices, but without Rand those choices are not possible and thus trace back to Rand. This does not mean Rand must do these deeds himself in order for Prophesy to be fulfilled, his mere existence enables the Prophesies to unfold.
His personal actions are almost incidental to the fulfillment of macro-level Prophesy such as the death of almost an entire race of people, unless you believe he will personally kill all but a remnant of the Aiel. His choices (i.e. saving those who,will accept the Peace of the Dragon) set Prophesy in motion... Thus twenty years after his death/dissapearance the Aiel who did not follow his Peace choose to wage an unwinnable war and end up dying out. They no longer have a purpose in the Pattern and are thus cut from it. Could as easily be some kind of plague or they could in fact die during TG. There are many options for the vast majority of the Aiel to die... Aviendha's vision is simply one of those options. An unlikely one as it clearly shows the Aiel in flagrant disregard to their own Prophesy, something they do not seem likely to do.
Think of how the Mirror Worlds work, they split off into infinite options based on an individual's choices/actions in life. Would Nynaeve of the main world be responsible for the actions created by the Nynaeve of a Mirror World? Or the actions of a Nynaeve of a Mirror World several times removed from the real world?
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
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The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
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As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
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Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
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There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
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But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
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The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
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Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
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So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
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What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
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I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
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Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
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No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
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You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
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Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
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You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
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They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
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No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
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Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
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You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
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No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
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All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
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Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
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Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
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That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
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What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
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The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
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So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
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That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
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He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
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Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
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We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
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Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
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Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
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Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
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