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Re: You people are the insane ones fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 30/12/2015 05:07:09 PM

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And you think that's better? You're ducking entire arguments, whole topics of conversation, by claiming I can't have a valid opinion because you disagree with me on it. You're claiming that being genocidal is better than homicidal.

No, I think your opinions are irrational because you have demonstrated your rabidity and quite frankly, stupidity, way too often. We've had some version of this discussion off and on for about a decade, now.
I never said you did, I was responding to a post by Sidious,

And got so rabidly self-righteous you neglected to see who you were saying what to...
where, in response to a common complaint I have made through the entire series, he chose to highlight a handful of incidents not only exclusively drawn from the books by Sanderson, but taking place after the majority of the series was over.

That is Sidious's problem. Take it up with him.

She didn't! She simply drew on their strength. They didn't fight at all.


This is the kind of crap that turns people off Canoli. She linked with 12 other Novices. She had many more with her. That should have made you question your assumtion, but you didn't, of course. And here's a direct quote, which of course you ignored since it didn't fit your narrative:
The attack below was breaking off, the entire raid focusing on Egwene. The novices fought Seanchan raiding parties on the stairs, forcing them back.



She didn't teach them advanced techniques, she just leeched off their power.

She taught them to link. And she taught them enough to not just hold against the Seanchan in the stairwells but actually push them back.
Not only that, these were women harshly disciplined into a total lack of agency.

A large majority of these women were new, but that is beside the point. Even if they were completely without agency, it is even more remarkable to have them move from terrified and clueless to an organized force that pushed the Seanchan back.
Giving orders to such people and making them obey is easier, which is why it is done to them in the first place.

Yet, she couldn't direct every single move they made. And she didn't.
Saerin induced willful women used to fighting for every scrap of authority and autonomy they could get, to cooperate under her.

They do no such things with a Sitter. Even in the toxic environment of inter-Ajah bickering in the Tower, no normal sister shows disrespect to a Sitter. Their base instinct is to obey a Sitter, due to the indoctrination you rant about so often.

And more, Egwene didn't just lead Novices. She led 40 sisters as well, including the head of the Green Ajah, none of whom were inclined to believe she had any right to tell them what to do. Sure, some of them were likely thankful she saved their ass, but not all, including Adelorna herself. And Egwene did not have legitimate authority, in their eyes.


If you think that the be all and end all of leadership is simply holding a title, that having legal authority all by itself is sufficient to get people to obey, you obviously haven't read the whole Wheel of Time series.

Don't create straw men, Cannoli. It exposes your desperation. I never claimed all Saerin did is hold her title. She clearly used it well. But it did help her, including directly letting her overrule Katerine when she came up with the stupid idea of trying to "eliminate each of them".

But Saerin did not do better than Egwene. By Saerin's own assessment, what they needed was to make things go bad for the Seanchan so they would end their raid:


The battle has already stretched long for a raid, perhaps because we’ve done such a poor job of resisting that they feel they can take their time. Either way, we need to form a unified front and hold our ground. Once the battle goes more roughly for them, they will withdraw. We are in no position whatsoever to ‘scour the Tower’ and force them out.

Well, Egwene's group held their ground and then some (primarily because they started off in groups, and also because they had angreal). That made the Seanchan raid focus on their level, and as Egwene's group continue to push them back, the cost became high enough that they disengaged.


If having a title makes leadership easy and undermines any accomplishments, Egwene has had the highest title, and did absolutely nothing before being randomly handed it, so YOU are the one who has been excessive in your praise for the whole series.

Again with the straw men? Titles don't undermine your accomplishments. But they do make it easier to lead those who acknowledge the title. Egwene did not have that, and yet did more. This doesn't make what Saerin did bad or unworthy. It just doesn't make it better than what Egwene did, including in her own assessment, which comes after she sees actual numbers which show her that what she achieved was a lot less than what Egwene did.
tShe DIDN'T mount an offense! She never fought except against attackers.

Nope. She attacked to'raken that were escaping, which forced others to focus on her. She cleared away invaders who were nowhere close to her initial position, and that made those within the Tower focus on her level. She did NOT just sit around in the Novice quarters and wait for Seanchan to attack her position.

So the possibility that a handful of people Egwene has just learned are petty and contemptible could get their hands on a little more power, is justification for crippling the entire Tower?

Being petty and contemptible does not make them any less dangerous in a physical fight. And those very traits mean they DO want to access sa'angreal desperately (as we see from Mesaana's conversation in LoC). How blinkered is your view that you think Egwene should have given them free access to insanely dangerous weapons?

And how did it cripple the Tower? Angreal were already kept locked away unless you had permission to use them. Come the Last Battle, that is exactly what happened.


No, I am asking her to NOT lock up all the guns, AFTER the war has already broken out.

She did not lock them up. She had them protected till they were needed, rather than let them be scattered around on the floor where anyone could take them. When it did come to go to war, they were in the hands of the Aes Sedai, to attack Shadowspawn by day and Heal the injured by night.
You're comparing items that merely alter the degree of effectiveness to strategic weapons, but I'M the one who is distorting things. Okay. Sure.

What? By that frankly MORONIC logic, nukes just alter the effectiveness of grenade launchers!

With a powerful sa'angreal like Vora's wand and Traveling, the kind of damage a Forsaken could do is absolutely equivalent to a nuke in the WoT world.



In the first place, Sanderson being Sanderson, how can you credit anything characters do under his watch,

I don't, but extrapolating based on past intelligence of characters is fair game. If you think Egwene would hide away sa'angreal without any way to access them in an emergency, that's not something I'll bother convincing you to change your mind on.
and in the second, Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai, it's a pretty good bet there are no sensible emergency plans.

Egwene had them hidden and warded, not some old Aes Sedai with more belief in custom than sense.
The Salidar group is much more free of stagnant mentalities and more open to reforms, but their whole plan for responding to an attack by the Forsaken or Seanchan or anyone at all is "Form circles!"

A rather sensible plan, no? For both the Forsaken and Seanchan, this is the most effective strategy. Forsaken because that lets your overwhelm even their vastly greater skill. Seanchan because they can't not shield women, and are easy pickings for the circles.
Your assumption that she IS doing something unprecedented

She is ALREADY doing something unprecedented by hiding them.
is just as much a factor of your bias, as my assumption that she is not doing something she has never done before.

She has never put in plans to access something from a hidden room that was not hidden before? Well DUH!
On the contrary, Egwene has a history of overreacting, for which you and your kind make allowances.

Overreacting, you say. Not underreacting, or completely dismissing threats, correct? Then by your own assessment of her past, she would have plans in place for another Seanchan raid. Especially since she knows they have Traveling.
Her murder of the helpless sul'dam for one thing.

Who are these helpless sul'dam she murdered? The women who were holding leashes on Adelorna and some other damane? Those were combatants.

Still not her choice to make.

Why the fuck not?
Only her own SPEECH.

What speech? The only person she talks to in that stage is Egeanin. And nothing there is about her. Its about the Seals.
She had a past history of doing exactly that.

No, she does not. She has no past history of killing herself to appear heroic. She doesn't even have a past history of taking risks to appear heroic.
Rand, who is constantly predicting her responses with accuracy and seeing right through her, comes to the same conclusion.

Imaginary Rand from the crap stewing inside Cannoli's skull doesn't count.
That's exactly what you are doing. Egwene is good, therefore anything she did that works out well was done with the best of intentions, and anything she did that is half-assed and incomplete, she fixed behind the scenes, despite no indication whatsoever of her doing so. And anyone who disagrees is dismissed as insane and irrational.

No. YOU are insane and irrational. You are not everyone who dislikes Egwene.

About the only time I've used the "behind the scenes" argument is with the hiding of the sa'angreal, both because we're dealing with a new author, and because stupidity of that colossal scale has never been something we've seen from her.



What the hell are you talking about? She didn't kill any captured sisters, unless they were on the to'raken she shot down, in which case she is not remotely morally capable. She didn't put them on the to'raken, so it is not her fault if they die when she kills the flyers. Are you saying that she WAS wrong to do so? Because THAT is crazy.

I read your previous statement as referring to this, and since I never mentioned any such thing, I asked.

EDIT: I see now my prior comment lined up under the wrong post. I thought I was responding to Sidious because he was last on the thread.

Maybe next time, you'll pay attention who the hell you're responding to...
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Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 26/12/2015 08:46:07 PM 2020 Views
My answers - 27/12/2015 02:55:35 AM 983 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 04:42:28 PM 1089 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 09:01:33 PM 1045 Views
Black Ajah - 28/12/2015 02:44:04 AM 979 Views
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Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 09:51:54 AM 845 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 02:02:33 PM 918 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 12:40:49 PM 1301 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 01:53:00 PM 1126 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 11:35:09 AM 948 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 05:12:46 PM 998 Views
So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 04:26:47 PM 1155 Views
Re: So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 10:52:29 PM 996 Views
Why do you bother? *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:23:10 AM 567 Views
Seriously... - 29/12/2015 01:30:34 AM 1016 Views
Sadly I have to agree - 29/12/2015 08:46:58 AM 1040 Views
You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 11:21:24 AM 1067 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 12:10:51 PM 1087 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:25:09 AM 1049 Views
Yet it's Mesaana who forces the head to head confrontation with Egwene - 30/12/2015 05:25:00 PM 1056 Views
I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 02:53:14 AM 869 Views
Re: I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 06:28:33 AM 1019 Views
Damn stupid WoT, never working out the way you think it should! - 04/01/2016 01:38:45 AM 1059 Views
So you agree, Egwene eliminated on of the Forsaken in a direct conflict - 04/01/2016 03:28:35 AM 921 Views
Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 07:17:20 AM 1070 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 03:59:18 PM 980 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 04:19:00 PM 1047 Views
Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 04:28:00 PM 1090 Views
Re: Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 07:05:27 PM 1161 Views
That's not the worst argument given how lame many of them were - 04/01/2016 06:37:44 PM 1042 Views
Uh oh - 04/01/2016 07:03:08 PM 1499 Views
*grabs Dewars* *NM* - 04/01/2016 08:24:05 PM 675 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 06:22:02 PM 1168 Views
Apparently, Egwene shouldn't have killed the Sharans... - 31/12/2015 02:56:08 AM 1100 Views
it's just an excuse to not give credit to a character he doesn't like - 31/12/2015 04:44:17 AM 1230 Views
Exactly. The double standard has always existed in Cannoli's rants. - 31/12/2015 05:31:42 AM 1180 Views
Yes well I've only recently started to realize how distasteful it is - 31/12/2015 06:27:26 AM 1185 Views
Wow... the board was alive 5 years ago! - 31/12/2015 08:34:03 AM 1125 Views
LOL ... Someday you'll come to realize how right we were!!! *NM* - 31/12/2015 05:23:18 PM 694 Views
How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM 1253 Views
Re: How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 10:49:20 AM 1295 Views
You can dislike Cannoli, you can claim his arguments are biased... - 31/12/2015 07:09:55 PM 1160 Views
Offended? No, I find it funny, in a needs medication way - 31/12/2015 07:50:28 PM 1015 Views
It is possible - 01/01/2016 05:59:51 AM 1134 Views
It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 06:53:27 AM 1109 Views
Re: It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 08:43:43 AM 1057 Views
She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 01:49:37 AM 1129 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 04:16:39 AM 1084 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 08/01/2016 10:33:22 PM 1055 Views
Fair enough - 01/01/2016 09:31:47 AM 874 Views
Where did I say someone who reads his posts are dumb or something? - 01/01/2016 05:15:30 PM 874 Views
Not directly - 01/01/2016 09:09:05 PM 955 Views
And yet I'm being told I'm the one acting offended - 02/01/2016 01:15:15 AM 830 Views
See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 06:20:16 PM 939 Views
Re: See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 07:25:38 PM 1003 Views
Okay, Mark, all kidding and stuff aside, you're being the asshole, here. - 02/01/2016 03:49:08 AM 1033 Views
Okay... - 02/01/2016 04:50:24 AM 989 Views
About insults... - 02/01/2016 05:04:47 AM 933 Views
I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 02/01/2016 07:39:43 PM 894 Views
Re: I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 03/01/2016 10:39:10 AM 937 Views
LOL ... Love it *NM* - 03/01/2016 04:17:02 PM 502 Views
Re: Okay... - 02/01/2016 12:55:37 PM 1209 Views
Um, I think you are going a bit far with your assumptions - 01/01/2016 07:35:23 PM 904 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 02:13:32 PM 938 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:50:13 AM 1197 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 05:07:09 PM 1046 Views
My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:32:51 AM 923 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:47:58 AM 1002 Views
Thanks - 01/01/2016 06:14:45 AM 921 Views
One thing... - 01/01/2016 06:42:10 AM 874 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 08:49:00 AM 866 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 01:40:21 PM 926 Views
Interesting - 01/01/2016 09:18:43 AM 879 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 05:29:38 PM 933 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 06:50:26 PM 837 Views
Or perhaps a mixed circle could figure it out - 01/01/2016 07:40:02 PM 855 Views
Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 01/01/2016 09:10:26 PM 900 Views
Re: Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 02/01/2016 01:13:05 AM 906 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 02/01/2016 02:10:44 AM 1111 Views
Here we go with the selective criticisms again... - 02/01/2016 04:23:47 AM 990 Views
It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM 1169 Views
not true, the Sul'dam's mission was to capture or kill as many marath'damane as they could - 02/01/2016 08:49:28 PM 873 Views
How are they supposed to do that without a'dam? - 04/01/2016 01:45:52 AM 1009 Views
enemy combatant in an active hot zone - 04/01/2016 03:34:15 AM 893 Views
Only if they were germane to the issue... - 03/01/2016 09:32:22 AM 849 Views
Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:22:12 PM 885 Views
Re: Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:56:35 PM 1048 Views
Cheers - 03/01/2016 09:50:41 PM 821 Views
Re: Cheers - 03/01/2016 10:35:34 PM 982 Views
Re: Only if they were germane to the issue... - 04/01/2016 07:15:58 AM 904 Views
Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 12:29:58 PM 1224 Views
Re: Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 02:41:19 PM 1126 Views
Interesting... - 28/12/2015 02:31:33 PM 959 Views
Re Perrin - 29/12/2015 07:24:41 AM 1038 Views
Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 08:26:18 AM 1175 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 01:44:53 PM 993 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 07/01/2016 12:24:28 AM 1246 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:40:03 PM 771 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:44:10 PM 755 Views
Overrated characters - 06/02/2016 04:24:55 PM 780 Views

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