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How is this a concession? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM


The point is that Cannoli is very knowledgable about most areas of the series and he could be a great debater regarding Egwene, whom I love and he despises. But it's become irrational now and more than irritating. I have written whole posts like http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/69583/ where I am prepared to concede bad behaviour on Egwene's part.

Do you really think THAT is a concession? You pretended to consider that she might be at fault, and proceeded to offer four arguments in her favor, and none in opposition! My responses were far more conciliatory, in that I allowed she might do some good from that point on, and that her tactics must be judged on the use to which she puts the power she has gained with them. And for shit like that, I am supposed to just cave in and change my mind?


However, Cannoli will not concede anything. I actually enjoy debating with Shannow but he's the same with the OP.
Why should I walk back my opinion just because you don't like it? Why should I concede anything? If we were inviting WoT characters to lunch, and I refused to allow Egwene or Siuan or Min, but insisted on only allowing the good ones to come, while not letting you veto anyone, yeah, that calls for concessions. But reversing my opinions because you don't share them is an insane expectation. If Egwene did good things, my opinion would not be so set on her. If I call her out on her treatment of Mat, why should I concede that she was nice to Perrin or Rand, if she is not?

Whether or not I make concessions has NOTHING to do with whether or not I am right on a particular issue.

What you are really saying is, "I like arguing until it gets hard; or I relish a determined opponent, as long as he eventually gives up and lets me win!"


I just don't understand how anyone can say that Egwene has not delivered and then come up with more than preposterous answers when these facts are challenged.

The original point was characters who are praised by OTHER CHARACTERS during the series, who don't live up to it. You promptly cited a bunch of examples from the last "book" for which there was no time to give Egwene unwarranted praise, and which were not all that impressive on the scale of the other main characters. Sure, she did better than Random Aes Sedai Sanderson Named After a Sycophantic Fan #2, but not compared to Nynaeve or Rand or Moiraine. She beat Mesaana in a way you even admitted was stupid, and M'hael as a function of their equipment - hers let her suicide bomb him. Author fiat, in other words. On the other hand, Nynaeve beat Moghedian through a skill she had taken specific pains to hone prior to their confrontation, and by observational awareness of her surrounds, and some deductive reasoning. She turned T'A'R against its most dangerous user. Aviendha did something similar with Hessalm Hessalam Graendal mk2. Rand often won by daring what they believed to be impossible. And he liberated countries. All Egwene did was prevent Mesaana from winnowing a handful of the more inept channelers at the last moment. It's not like Mesaana was acting against the world on a scale akin to Rahvin or Sammael or Bel'al, or doing her thing as effectively as Graendal had been.

However preposterous you claim my reason is, who is to say you are right and I am wrong, when I find your presentation of beating Mesaana as comparable to beating Moghedian or Graendal or Lanfear even more preposterous.


When clever people are stupid or stubborn it's the absolute worst. Why was Egwene obligated to kill herself against Taim?
I don't know, but I'm not defending it or praising her for it.
That's completely moronic. Most people would have held out thinking of another plan, or waiting for an ally to help them.
Dur.
Maybe the AS around her would have made a circle of 13 and finally come to the party? The point is that she made the choice to overdraw and die to kill Taim and a whole army of evil channelers. Even from her own PoV the act was selfless.
The PoV of a character is not proof that the character is right.
How is that not producing the goods? HOW!?
How is it relevant to the question of receiving excessive praise, well before she did any of those things? How are we supposed to find those definitively impressive compared to actual leadership during that same battle, or running the battle itself, or beating the Dark One? This is how it always goes with Egwene - she does things on a much smaller scale, and you people insist on presenting it as equivalent to more significant things. Egwene gets spanked with specific constraints against breaking her will, and gets Healed afterwards, and you compare with Rand's beatings, imprisonment and anguish of a love interest sharing his punishment to a degree, with no Healing, and a deliberate attempt to break his will! Where was the honey in Rand's tea? When did Egwene have to watch Gawyn getting beaten before her eyes for taking her part? But Egwene says that now she has suffered comparably to Rand, and you people swallow it as an objective fact. Egwene takes an army into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, along with the greatest living experts in that place, to face a bunch of ill-trained Black sisters, and a Forsaken, who, unlike Lanfear or Moghedian, has never been cited as having any particular ability with the dreamworld, she only manages to corner her quarry because Perrin wandered by with the dreamspike, and still needed admonishment during the battle from Bair and Perrin, and that's supposed be anywhere near as impressive and Nynaeve taking on Moghedian all alone, with no advance warning or allies capable of more than an ineffectual distraction, turning T'A'R against its mistress, and then coopting the Forsaken to helping Rand kill Rahvin. She has no military accomplishments through the real books, although a great deal of military criticisms to offer; the political stakes of her arc are the lowest of anyone's, they are mostly achieved by authorial loopholes, rather than genuine successes, like winning battles, or eliminating genuine threats, and she makes no good or useful reforms as Rand, Mat, Perrin & Elayne all do, and finishes up too late to contribute to any of the other things going on.

Egwene only delivers the goods in a very mundane fashion compared to what so many others do in the same series.

Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 04:26:47 PM 1559 Views
Re: So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 10:52:29 PM 1389 Views
Why do you bother? *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:23:10 AM 780 Views
Seriously... - 29/12/2015 01:30:34 AM 1376 Views
Sadly I have to agree - 29/12/2015 08:46:58 AM 1400 Views
You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 11:21:24 AM 1413 Views
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Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:25:09 AM 1411 Views
Yet it's Mesaana who forces the head to head confrontation with Egwene - 30/12/2015 05:25:00 PM 1413 Views
I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 02:53:14 AM 1215 Views
Re: I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 06:28:33 AM 1377 Views
Damn stupid WoT, never working out the way you think it should! - 04/01/2016 01:38:45 AM 1394 Views
So you agree, Egwene eliminated on of the Forsaken in a direct conflict - 04/01/2016 03:28:35 AM 1256 Views
Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 07:17:20 AM 1461 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 03:59:18 PM 1388 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 04:19:00 PM 1389 Views
Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 04:28:00 PM 1433 Views
Re: Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 07:05:27 PM 1681 Views
That's not the worst argument given how lame many of them were - 04/01/2016 06:37:44 PM 1459 Views
Uh oh - 04/01/2016 07:03:08 PM 2003 Views
*grabs Dewars* *NM* - 04/01/2016 08:24:05 PM 890 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 06:22:02 PM 1524 Views
Apparently, Egwene shouldn't have killed the Sharans... - 31/12/2015 02:56:08 AM 1454 Views
it's just an excuse to not give credit to a character he doesn't like - 31/12/2015 04:44:17 AM 1608 Views
Exactly. The double standard has always existed in Cannoli's rants. - 31/12/2015 05:31:42 AM 1546 Views
Yes well I've only recently started to realize how distasteful it is - 31/12/2015 06:27:26 AM 1570 Views
Wow... the board was alive 5 years ago! - 31/12/2015 08:34:03 AM 1512 Views
LOL ... Someday you'll come to realize how right we were!!! *NM* - 31/12/2015 05:23:18 PM 912 Views
How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM 1643 Views
Re: How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 10:49:20 AM 1705 Views
You can dislike Cannoli, you can claim his arguments are biased... - 31/12/2015 07:09:55 PM 1533 Views
Offended? No, I find it funny, in a needs medication way - 31/12/2015 07:50:28 PM 1391 Views
It is possible - 01/01/2016 05:59:51 AM 1521 Views
It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 06:53:27 AM 1492 Views
Re: It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 08:43:43 AM 1461 Views
She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 01:49:37 AM 1497 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 04:16:39 AM 1472 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 08/01/2016 10:33:22 PM 1437 Views
Fair enough - 01/01/2016 09:31:47 AM 1248 Views
Where did I say someone who reads his posts are dumb or something? - 01/01/2016 05:15:30 PM 1246 Views
Not directly - 01/01/2016 09:09:05 PM 1314 Views
And yet I'm being told I'm the one acting offended - 02/01/2016 01:15:15 AM 1221 Views
See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 06:20:16 PM 1304 Views
Re: See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 07:25:38 PM 1399 Views
Okay, Mark, all kidding and stuff aside, you're being the asshole, here. - 02/01/2016 03:49:08 AM 1392 Views
Okay... - 02/01/2016 04:50:24 AM 1312 Views
About insults... - 02/01/2016 05:04:47 AM 1280 Views
I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 02/01/2016 07:39:43 PM 1276 Views
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LOL ... Love it *NM* - 03/01/2016 04:17:02 PM 726 Views
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Um, I think you are going a bit far with your assumptions - 01/01/2016 07:35:23 PM 1265 Views
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Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 06:50:26 PM 1213 Views
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Re: Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 02/01/2016 01:13:05 AM 1262 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 02/01/2016 02:10:44 AM 1488 Views
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It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM 1537 Views
not true, the Sul'dam's mission was to capture or kill as many marath'damane as they could - 02/01/2016 08:49:28 PM 1249 Views
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enemy combatant in an active hot zone - 04/01/2016 03:34:15 AM 1262 Views
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Overrated characters - 06/02/2016 04:24:55 PM 1141 Views

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