Active Users:951 Time:02/11/2025 10:24:40 PM
How is this a concession? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM


The point is that Cannoli is very knowledgable about most areas of the series and he could be a great debater regarding Egwene, whom I love and he despises. But it's become irrational now and more than irritating. I have written whole posts like http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/69583/ where I am prepared to concede bad behaviour on Egwene's part.

Do you really think THAT is a concession? You pretended to consider that she might be at fault, and proceeded to offer four arguments in her favor, and none in opposition! My responses were far more conciliatory, in that I allowed she might do some good from that point on, and that her tactics must be judged on the use to which she puts the power she has gained with them. And for shit like that, I am supposed to just cave in and change my mind?


However, Cannoli will not concede anything. I actually enjoy debating with Shannow but he's the same with the OP.
Why should I walk back my opinion just because you don't like it? Why should I concede anything? If we were inviting WoT characters to lunch, and I refused to allow Egwene or Siuan or Min, but insisted on only allowing the good ones to come, while not letting you veto anyone, yeah, that calls for concessions. But reversing my opinions because you don't share them is an insane expectation. If Egwene did good things, my opinion would not be so set on her. If I call her out on her treatment of Mat, why should I concede that she was nice to Perrin or Rand, if she is not?

Whether or not I make concessions has NOTHING to do with whether or not I am right on a particular issue.

What you are really saying is, "I like arguing until it gets hard; or I relish a determined opponent, as long as he eventually gives up and lets me win!"


I just don't understand how anyone can say that Egwene has not delivered and then come up with more than preposterous answers when these facts are challenged.

The original point was characters who are praised by OTHER CHARACTERS during the series, who don't live up to it. You promptly cited a bunch of examples from the last "book" for which there was no time to give Egwene unwarranted praise, and which were not all that impressive on the scale of the other main characters. Sure, she did better than Random Aes Sedai Sanderson Named After a Sycophantic Fan #2, but not compared to Nynaeve or Rand or Moiraine. She beat Mesaana in a way you even admitted was stupid, and M'hael as a function of their equipment - hers let her suicide bomb him. Author fiat, in other words. On the other hand, Nynaeve beat Moghedian through a skill she had taken specific pains to hone prior to their confrontation, and by observational awareness of her surrounds, and some deductive reasoning. She turned T'A'R against its most dangerous user. Aviendha did something similar with Hessalm Hessalam Graendal mk2. Rand often won by daring what they believed to be impossible. And he liberated countries. All Egwene did was prevent Mesaana from winnowing a handful of the more inept channelers at the last moment. It's not like Mesaana was acting against the world on a scale akin to Rahvin or Sammael or Bel'al, or doing her thing as effectively as Graendal had been.

However preposterous you claim my reason is, who is to say you are right and I am wrong, when I find your presentation of beating Mesaana as comparable to beating Moghedian or Graendal or Lanfear even more preposterous.


When clever people are stupid or stubborn it's the absolute worst. Why was Egwene obligated to kill herself against Taim?
I don't know, but I'm not defending it or praising her for it.
That's completely moronic. Most people would have held out thinking of another plan, or waiting for an ally to help them.
Dur.
Maybe the AS around her would have made a circle of 13 and finally come to the party? The point is that she made the choice to overdraw and die to kill Taim and a whole army of evil channelers. Even from her own PoV the act was selfless.
The PoV of a character is not proof that the character is right.
How is that not producing the goods? HOW!?
How is it relevant to the question of receiving excessive praise, well before she did any of those things? How are we supposed to find those definitively impressive compared to actual leadership during that same battle, or running the battle itself, or beating the Dark One? This is how it always goes with Egwene - she does things on a much smaller scale, and you people insist on presenting it as equivalent to more significant things. Egwene gets spanked with specific constraints against breaking her will, and gets Healed afterwards, and you compare with Rand's beatings, imprisonment and anguish of a love interest sharing his punishment to a degree, with no Healing, and a deliberate attempt to break his will! Where was the honey in Rand's tea? When did Egwene have to watch Gawyn getting beaten before her eyes for taking her part? But Egwene says that now she has suffered comparably to Rand, and you people swallow it as an objective fact. Egwene takes an army into Tel'Aran'Rhiod, along with the greatest living experts in that place, to face a bunch of ill-trained Black sisters, and a Forsaken, who, unlike Lanfear or Moghedian, has never been cited as having any particular ability with the dreamworld, she only manages to corner her quarry because Perrin wandered by with the dreamspike, and still needed admonishment during the battle from Bair and Perrin, and that's supposed be anywhere near as impressive and Nynaeve taking on Moghedian all alone, with no advance warning or allies capable of more than an ineffectual distraction, turning T'A'R against its mistress, and then coopting the Forsaken to helping Rand kill Rahvin. She has no military accomplishments through the real books, although a great deal of military criticisms to offer; the political stakes of her arc are the lowest of anyone's, they are mostly achieved by authorial loopholes, rather than genuine successes, like winning battles, or eliminating genuine threats, and she makes no good or useful reforms as Rand, Mat, Perrin & Elayne all do, and finishes up too late to contribute to any of the other things going on.

Egwene only delivers the goods in a very mundane fashion compared to what so many others do in the same series.

Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
Reply to message
Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 26/12/2015 08:46:07 PM 2412 Views
My answers - 27/12/2015 02:55:35 AM 1391 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 04:42:28 PM 1513 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 27/12/2015 09:01:33 PM 1475 Views
Black Ajah - 28/12/2015 02:44:04 AM 1412 Views
Mine - 27/12/2015 10:39:08 PM 1532 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 12:57:23 AM 1444 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 09:51:54 AM 1264 Views
Re: Mine - 28/12/2015 02:02:33 PM 1291 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 12:40:49 PM 1742 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 28/12/2015 01:53:00 PM 1540 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 11:35:09 AM 1367 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 29/12/2015 05:12:46 PM 1394 Views
So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 04:26:47 PM 1592 Views
Re: So about Egwene... - 28/12/2015 10:52:29 PM 1450 Views
Why do you bother? *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:23:10 AM 799 Views
Seriously... - 29/12/2015 01:30:34 AM 1408 Views
Sadly I have to agree - 29/12/2015 08:46:58 AM 1447 Views
You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 11:21:24 AM 1453 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 12:10:51 PM 1509 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:25:09 AM 1454 Views
Yet it's Mesaana who forces the head to head confrontation with Egwene - 30/12/2015 05:25:00 PM 1460 Views
I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 02:53:14 AM 1258 Views
Re: I don't get the "circumstances being created" argument anyway... - 31/12/2015 06:28:33 AM 1406 Views
Damn stupid WoT, never working out the way you think it should! - 04/01/2016 01:38:45 AM 1432 Views
So you agree, Egwene eliminated on of the Forsaken in a direct conflict - 04/01/2016 03:28:35 AM 1288 Views
Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 07:17:20 AM 1500 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 03:59:18 PM 1431 Views
Re: Yeah. I just don't see how it redounds to her credit, or is particularly impressive. - 04/01/2016 04:19:00 PM 1418 Views
Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 04:28:00 PM 1467 Views
Re: Well, to put things in context - 04/01/2016 07:05:27 PM 1717 Views
That's not the worst argument given how lame many of them were - 04/01/2016 06:37:44 PM 1521 Views
Uh oh - 04/01/2016 07:03:08 PM 2074 Views
*grabs Dewars* *NM* - 04/01/2016 08:24:05 PM 917 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 06:22:02 PM 1563 Views
Apparently, Egwene shouldn't have killed the Sharans... - 31/12/2015 02:56:08 AM 1493 Views
it's just an excuse to not give credit to a character he doesn't like - 31/12/2015 04:44:17 AM 1645 Views
Exactly. The double standard has always existed in Cannoli's rants. - 31/12/2015 05:31:42 AM 1577 Views
Yes well I've only recently started to realize how distasteful it is - 31/12/2015 06:27:26 AM 1616 Views
Wow... the board was alive 5 years ago! - 31/12/2015 08:34:03 AM 1549 Views
LOL ... Someday you'll come to realize how right we were!!! *NM* - 31/12/2015 05:23:18 PM 935 Views
How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 08:05:38 AM 1703 Views
Re: How is this a concession? - 04/01/2016 10:49:20 AM 1736 Views
You can dislike Cannoli, you can claim his arguments are biased... - 31/12/2015 07:09:55 PM 1566 Views
Offended? No, I find it funny, in a needs medication way - 31/12/2015 07:50:28 PM 1421 Views
It is possible - 01/01/2016 05:59:51 AM 1557 Views
It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 06:53:27 AM 1546 Views
Re: It's also possible that he created a bunch of sock puppet handles to pat himself on the back - 01/01/2016 08:43:43 AM 1502 Views
She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 01:49:37 AM 1531 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 02/01/2016 04:16:39 AM 1513 Views
Re: She's. Not. A. Real. Person. - 08/01/2016 10:33:22 PM 1471 Views
Fair enough - 01/01/2016 09:31:47 AM 1274 Views
Where did I say someone who reads his posts are dumb or something? - 01/01/2016 05:15:30 PM 1295 Views
Not directly - 01/01/2016 09:09:05 PM 1353 Views
And yet I'm being told I'm the one acting offended - 02/01/2016 01:15:15 AM 1259 Views
See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 06:20:16 PM 1348 Views
Re: See, this is the crap I'm talking about. - 01/01/2016 07:25:38 PM 1444 Views
Okay, Mark, all kidding and stuff aside, you're being the asshole, here. - 02/01/2016 03:49:08 AM 1428 Views
Okay... - 02/01/2016 04:50:24 AM 1360 Views
About insults... - 02/01/2016 05:04:47 AM 1323 Views
I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 02/01/2016 07:39:43 PM 1320 Views
Re: I don't know where to even respond about all this! - 03/01/2016 10:39:10 AM 1345 Views
LOL ... Love it *NM* - 03/01/2016 04:17:02 PM 740 Views
Re: Okay... - 02/01/2016 12:55:37 PM 1604 Views
Um, I think you are going a bit far with your assumptions - 01/01/2016 07:35:23 PM 1300 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 29/12/2015 02:13:32 PM 1343 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 11:50:13 AM 1607 Views
Re: You people are the insane ones - 30/12/2015 05:07:09 PM 1454 Views
My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:32:51 AM 1380 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 31/12/2015 08:47:58 AM 1416 Views
Thanks - 01/01/2016 06:14:45 AM 1309 Views
One thing... - 01/01/2016 06:42:10 AM 1256 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 08:49:00 AM 1278 Views
Re: One thing... - 01/01/2016 01:40:21 PM 1333 Views
Interesting - 01/01/2016 09:18:43 AM 1296 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 05:29:38 PM 1323 Views
Re: Interesting - 01/01/2016 06:50:26 PM 1249 Views
Or perhaps a mixed circle could figure it out - 01/01/2016 07:40:02 PM 1264 Views
Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 01/01/2016 09:10:26 PM 1298 Views
Re: Maybe it's like a broken bone? - 02/01/2016 01:13:05 AM 1299 Views
Re: My admittedly scratch memory - 02/01/2016 02:10:44 AM 1538 Views
Here we go with the selective criticisms again... - 02/01/2016 04:23:47 AM 1410 Views
It's not selective to point out legitimate differences in circumstances. - 02/01/2016 12:25:07 PM 1584 Views
not true, the Sul'dam's mission was to capture or kill as many marath'damane as they could - 02/01/2016 08:49:28 PM 1287 Views
How are they supposed to do that without a'dam? - 04/01/2016 01:45:52 AM 1396 Views
enemy combatant in an active hot zone - 04/01/2016 03:34:15 AM 1289 Views
Only if they were germane to the issue... - 03/01/2016 09:32:22 AM 1273 Views
Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:22:12 PM 1293 Views
Re: Timing of the creation of the three oaths - 03/01/2016 08:56:35 PM 1454 Views
Cheers - 03/01/2016 09:50:41 PM 1267 Views
Re: Cheers - 03/01/2016 10:35:34 PM 1416 Views
Re: Only if they were germane to the issue... - 04/01/2016 07:15:58 AM 1348 Views
Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 12:29:58 PM 1620 Views
Re: Q.E.D. - 04/01/2016 02:41:19 PM 1533 Views
Interesting... - 28/12/2015 02:31:33 PM 1377 Views
Re Perrin - 29/12/2015 07:24:41 AM 1427 Views
Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 08:26:18 AM 1545 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 04/01/2016 01:44:53 PM 1402 Views
Re: Perrin is right almost all the time. How is he not smart? - 07/01/2016 12:24:28 AM 1683 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:40:03 PM 1159 Views
Re: Let's have a survey! Seven questions, give your opinions - 18/01/2016 04:44:10 PM 1141 Views
Overrated characters - 06/02/2016 04:24:55 PM 1185 Views

Reply to Message