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Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
If she had said she hadn't noticed outright without any sarcasm then it would be more debatable.

Her statement, sacrastic or not is still a lie... how does this not violate the 1st Oath?


It doesn't matter what words she uses, the binder caught on her intent, on the meaning she was giving her words, which was altered by her tone. Aes Sedai can make a completely false statement if they believe they're telling the truth. It's similar with sarcasm: they are saying one thing, and mean something else. By using a clearly sarcastic tone, Cadsuane made those words mean something else, something which was "true".

She wasn't trying to hide her meaning. By the tone, these words meant something like "everyone in Bandar Eban knows that", which isn't a lie. Not a shred of an attempt to deceive in there. RJ made it very clear the first Oath doesn't hinder Aes Sedai from using sarcasm and exageration at all as long as they don't intend to hide the sarcasm in order to deceive (he gave the example of a blind person asking the colour of something. AS could not answer sarcastically for that, but if the person saw normally they could use sarcasm and say "it's obviously black" - their words meaning "what sort of question is this, you can see as well as I it's white";).

In these cases, it's all about intent. They can mislead by omission too, because the oath stops them from speaking out lies, but doesn't force them to finish statements. They mean to say one thing and end up saying another by stopping in the middle.

Aes Sedai can speak hypothetically - in that case they are bound by the letter of the oath: presenting a true hypothesis without regard for the fact they hope it will be taken for a certainty (as Sarene did with Semirhage: it was a chance in a million that Elaida (or Egwene) would be convinced the woman knew too much to be executed, but that chance in a million was enough for Sarene to say "we may be able to convinced her to lessen your punishments" etc.).


Sarcasm doesn't fit into that description, at least not in the case of Cadsuane's statement.


It does.

You're looking at this in the absolute, when what is true or false is always relative to context, tone, intent etc.

In the absolute, Cadsuane's words were untrue. She could not say them in a normal tone. But if she said them with a sarcastic tone, they no longer were untrue as it altered their meaning to something else altogether, something that was clear to her interlocutor as well as herself. She wasn't saying "I had not noticed".

The binder would have stopped her from saying this sarcastically only if she had not noticed for real and was trying to deceive using sarcasm that actually she did notice. In that case, she could not have used a sarcastic tone, she would have had to say the words flat out.

Deadsy brought up Tamra's instructions above. She could not have said those words as a statement, but she could fabricate a lie and gave instructions to Moiraine/Siuan to tell this lie if asked. As long as they knew it to be a lie, she could.


It's all relative.

Looking at another example from Sionid in Malden, she is sarcastic with Perrin (saying something to the affect of not knowing any of that without him), her statement is all 100% true since Perrin was actually the source of her information...


I would need the quote, but if you describe the context well it had nothing to do with the fact Perrin was the source (which if I understand, she didn't believe to reply sarcastically), it was that she was being sarcastic.

The Oath stopped Siuan from exagerating the truth to Moiraine in NS even though her intent was clearly not to deceive.


The binder stopped Siuan because she didn't believe what she was about to say to be true.

And Verin reveals that she is BA with a statement that is obviously a lie "your dress is green" ... if an AS could say this sarcastically, why did Egwene immediately jump to the conclusion that Verin was not bound to the Oaths?


Because Verin said that flat out in a conversational tone, she didn't intend any sarcasm.


This message last edited by DomA on 06/12/2009 at 08:36:21 PM
Reply to message
Cadsuane lies! darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2255 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! joepo - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1452 Views
Sarcasm is one thing Ryan - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1171 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1121 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic TheCrownless - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1071 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1134 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* Deadsy - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 519 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying DomA - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1176 Views
Yes, she did state it. Deadsy - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1089 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. DomA - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1079 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? DomA - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 1033 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1113 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 947 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 914 Views
^This. *NM* Nate - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 532 Views
Because it isn't a lie DomA - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1103 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1081 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. Darth_Katie - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 908 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 1018 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic DomA - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1121 Views
Quote for you darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1054 Views
Re: Quote for you DomA - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 961 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 884 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 949 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. Onarishma - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 898 Views
Not at all the case darius_sedai - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 982 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? Onarishma - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1063 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! darius_sedai - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 841 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? Legolas - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 976 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? DomA - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 860 Views
But surely an Aes Sedai can answer a question she hasn't fully heard yet. Legolas - 07/12/2009 03:06:34 PM 1087 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 911 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... Legolas - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1201 Views
Sarcasm Sidious - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1132 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 924 Views
Here is what RJ said about it Etzel - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1082 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* darius_sedai - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 468 Views
Like my momma used to say... Mat_Cauthon33 - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 978 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 887 Views
Agreed. johnnymack - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 885 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? Nameless Ashaman - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 919 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* BlackAdder - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1235 Views
No, no it doesn't. johnnymack - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 874 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. Nameless Ashaman - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 903 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? redhand - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 854 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate AgentOrange - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 886 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? redhand - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 890 Views
Usually you're s'possed to answer with a yes or no. It's easy to tell when you're evasive AgentOrange - 09/12/2009 10:46:58 PM 932 Views
Where's the problem? Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 831 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 893 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 896 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1092 Views
PS You misread my original quote darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 824 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 830 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 949 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote taura-tierno - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 1014 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning Shadowkiller - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 964 Views
We are starting understand each other darius_sedai - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 928 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other Shadowkiller - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 854 Views
Completely agree darius_sedai - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 923 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* Lord Haart - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 395 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 854 Views
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