Active Users:670 Time:06/03/2026 04:13:30 PM
The Oaths focus on INTENT beetnemesis Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM
(I'm working this out as I type it, so bear with me. I think I'm right, though)

Basically, the Oaths aren't a kind of mystical binding- they're just a very specific form of applied Compulsion.


A stick of ivory doesn't know what a lie is. Weaves of Spirit can't tell if you're using the Power offensively or defensively.

But YOU can.

What the Oath Rod does, I'm fairly sure, is make it so you are unable to consciously violate any oath you make on it.

So "To speak no word that is not true" could LOGICALLY forbid sarcasm. It would also logically not do anything, because any word by itself is not a lie. As many have noted, it's not nearly as ironclad an oath as it sounds.


But what matters is what the Aes Sedai (or whoever swears the Oath) thinks. So, the swearer considers speaking a lie saying a "word that is not true." If there's any doubt, even subconsciously, the swearer would not be able to say the lie.

However, something like casual sarcasm, where the speaker knows she isn't intending to lie, and isn't attempting to be deceitful? No problem.




Another example: The "no Power as a weapon" rule. Except in the last defense of life of yourself, a sister, or your Warder.

What does "last defense" mean? Well, you could rationalize it to mean that an army charging at you from half a mile away makes it the "last defense." But wouldn't running away also be a defense? Shouldn't you not be able to make heads explode until you see the arrows coming at you?

Two equally valid interpretations, but the Oath Rod focuses on intent- if the Aes Sedai rationalizes "there's no way I could run away; they'd catch me and kill me" then that's that. The Oath Rod doesn't compute run speed and terrain conditions- the Aes Sedai does.


One last example- "make no weapon for a man to kill another man." What about women killing men, or men killing women? What about weapons for men to kill Shadowspawn? What about weapons without a purpose, that they'll just leave in a big pile over on that table and hope no one takes them, wink wink?


--------
The Aes Sedai have the intent of the Oaths drilled into them long before they ever lay hands on that ivory Rod- so it's very hard, I'd say almost impossible, for them to deviate from the accepted interpretations. Most people don't see using sarcasm as lying, especially when your listeners know you're being sarcastic. The First Oath means "I will not lie," so an Aes Sedai can't lie. But sarcasm? No problem.
I amuse myself.
Reply to message
Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:10:41 PM 2300 Views
Re: Cadsuane lies! - 06/12/2009 06:18:39 PM 1508 Views
Sarcasm is one thing - 06/12/2009 06:43:12 PM 1207 Views
I disagree - 06/12/2009 06:51:27 PM 1166 Views
RJ has said they're allowed to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 07:07:32 PM 1109 Views
How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:13:21 PM 1170 Views
Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:53:31 PM 541 Views
Re: Good point, but in that same book Tamra said that Gitara didn't say anything before dying - 06/12/2009 08:03:36 PM 1228 Views
Yes, she did state it. - 06/12/2009 08:57:47 PM 1127 Views
Re: Yes, she did state it. - 07/12/2009 01:39:07 AM 1133 Views
Re: How does that jive with the Oaths? - 06/12/2009 07:57:10 PM 1091 Views
The Oaths focus on INTENT - 06/12/2009 10:01:27 PM 1153 Views
None of what you describe is an Oath ingrained into your bones. - 07/12/2009 01:52:49 AM 990 Views
It's ENTIRELY about self-rationalization - 07/12/2009 03:59:00 AM 948 Views
^This. *NM* - 07/12/2009 08:23:27 AM 569 Views
Because it isn't a lie - 06/12/2009 07:44:29 PM 1170 Views
I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:08:15 PM 1131 Views
Verin didn't say it sarcastically. - 06/12/2009 08:11:31 PM 944 Views
Really? I never would have known that without you - 06/12/2009 08:39:56 PM 1061 Views
Re: I understand this, I'm not arguing that an AS should not be able to be sarcastic - 06/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 1161 Views
Quote for you - 06/12/2009 08:42:52 PM 1102 Views
Re: Quote for you - 07/12/2009 01:30:57 AM 1008 Views
The sarcasm was for him repeating himself to her. The "remember" is the part she's refering to. - 07/12/2009 10:15:06 AM 928 Views
That's why I think this example of sarcasm works as opposed to Cadsuane who makes a false statement - 07/12/2009 03:17:52 PM 1002 Views
sarcasm is sarcasm. In both instances their is technically a lie. - 07/12/2009 11:28:02 PM 944 Views
Not at all the case - 07/12/2009 11:58:42 PM 1020 Views
Do you really believe he waited till the last minute to tell Seonid? - 14/12/2009 01:32:37 PM 1112 Views
That's the whole point of her being able to say what she did! - 14/12/2009 04:05:24 PM 887 Views
What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 01:49:32 PM 1023 Views
Re: What about the Sheriam thing? - 07/12/2009 02:15:25 PM 894 Views
I actually don't take it as proof. - 07/12/2009 09:00:58 PM 955 Views
Yeah, I thought about that possibility too... - 07/12/2009 10:21:16 PM 1247 Views
Sarcasm - 06/12/2009 07:14:47 PM 1172 Views
It's obviously meant to be sarcasm, I just don't like - 06/12/2009 07:18:40 PM 968 Views
Here is what RJ said about it - 06/12/2009 07:41:18 PM 1137 Views
Well I have to say I think RJ made the wrong call with this one *NM* - 06/12/2009 07:43:47 PM 484 Views
Like my momma used to say... - 06/12/2009 11:27:22 PM 1040 Views
Your momma is a wise woman. - 07/12/2009 03:14:27 PM 930 Views
Agreed. - 07/12/2009 01:45:39 AM 930 Views
You can already drive a truck through the oaths. Does this one additional tiny gap really matter? - 07/12/2009 04:07:16 AM 977 Views
Alys (Moiraine alias) *NM* - 07/12/2009 05:13:18 AM 1274 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 03:31:11 PM 923 Views
Re: No, no it doesn't. - 08/12/2009 04:41:42 PM 939 Views
what do you think a RL lie detector would tell in this case? - 07/12/2009 12:27:07 PM 907 Views
in RL you would get warned by the investigator to cooperate - 07/12/2009 01:04:33 PM 930 Views
But how would the machine reading indicate? - 07/12/2009 07:04:22 PM 927 Views
Where's the problem? - 09/12/2009 04:18:40 PM 868 Views
It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:14:39 PM 939 Views
Re: It's in the way the Oath is worded - 09/12/2009 05:36:59 PM 946 Views
See the Cadsuane quote, but I'll give you another one - 09/12/2009 06:15:32 PM 1132 Views
PS You misread my original quote - 09/12/2009 11:00:56 PM 860 Views
You're so right. My fault. *NM* - 10/12/2009 12:57:29 AM 887 Views
No worries! It a discussion forum, we're supposed to discuss - 10/12/2009 12:58:39 AM 997 Views
Re: PS You misread my original quote - 28/12/2009 10:04:51 PM 1078 Views
Lies, untruths, sarcasm, and meaning - 09/12/2009 07:46:25 PM 1015 Views
We are starting understand each other - 09/12/2009 10:09:41 PM 970 Views
Re: We are starting understand each other - 10/12/2009 01:03:08 AM 907 Views
Completely agree - 10/12/2009 01:23:36 AM 988 Views
Why do you think she *had* noticed the Aiel? *NM* - 14/12/2009 02:02:24 PM 410 Views
because she arrived with Rand and dozens of Maidens, - 15/12/2009 01:02:43 AM 893 Views

Reply to Message