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Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM
Elayne's angreal made her 2x stronger than Nynaeve... which would make her about a 170 with it ... so what she calls a weak angreal makes her 4x stronger than her natural strength by the above scale? Nearly no other angreal in the series we've seen is that strong! Odds are it added more like 2.5x to Elayne (IMO).

Let's look at another example as well ... Verin's angreal was enough that combined with 2 others she was probably quite a bit stronger than Graendal. We know Graendal has a weak angreal here, but judging from the Alivia v. Cyndane battle the less skilled folks need to be dramatically stronger than one of the FS just to hold them off.

By Sidious scales Verin, Shalon and Kumria combined would be maybe a 60, let's say a 150 with Angreal, Graendal with her Angreal would probably have been a minimum of a 135 yet was driven off? Not likely that Verin is skilled enough to fight off a Forsaken on essentially equal footing. Like Alivia she would have needed to be vastly stronger to have any chance.

What we know from their battle was that Verin's circle was not enough stronger than Graendal to shield her once she already held the Power, but they were strong enough to fight her off despite her skill advantage... IMO they would have to be about 20 points higher at minimum, but no more than 40 (or they could have shielded her). This leads me to think that Kumira (who is a very weak AS, must be at least a 15 with Verin a 25 and Shalon a 30 making them a 70 combined and a 175 with angreal. It's either that or Verin's angreal is much more significant than we've been lead to believe!

Another example: we are told that Cadsuane was holding more than Elza and Merise combined, yet that makes her strong enough to hold off Forsaken attacks? The way Elza mentions it makes this not seem overly remarkable, but obvious that Cadsuane must have an angreal. It's very possible that Cadsuane could draw more from her angreal, but this formula only makes Cadsuane with her angreal in the 45 range at most... unlikely. She would need to be at least a 80 to have any hope of holding off even 1 Forsaken attack.

I just don't think the top tier AS are in the bottom 25% of effective strength. If weak AS are really like 10 or so strength the certainty that they could shield and hold Rand would not be there ... at a 130 it would be a struggle for 13 weak women to overcome him... and we know that is not the case, more than once we've been told that 13 women could handle any man with ease. IMO the weakest AS are probably 15 and the Moiraines of the world are more like 45 (Siuan's post-stilling x3) and Egwene being more like a 65 (in total potential) with Nynaeve around an 85-90 or so and Cadsuane being about a 55. Quotes from NS support that she is significantly stronger than Moiraine, yet still obviously not in the same league as Egwene/Elayne.

I also don't think you can actually compare men to women like this ... in strength, alone I'd say Rand is more like a 150 on the female strength curve. But in effect we've not seen that he's any more effective than Nynaeve, and so far Egwene and company have been able to perform anything Rand can... if Egwene was really less than 50% as effective as Rand we'd have seen her be unable to accomplish things that he can ... And by KoD she's able to split her flows in 14 ways, which tells us about the dexterity of women since she was holding so little of the power when she did it.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8795 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1749 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1712 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1523 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1632 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1201 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1711 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1502 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1197 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1241 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 793 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1329 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1395 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1363 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1272 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1149 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1205 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1354 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1107 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1041 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1052 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1112 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1394 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1332 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1266 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1152 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1166 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 764 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1263 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1282 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1126 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1158 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1114 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1293 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1372 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1258 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1181 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1187 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1237 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1185 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1124 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1075 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1178 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1329 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1239 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 675 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1332 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1240 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1463 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1317 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1198 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 635 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1282 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1464 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1221 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1185 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1185 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1182 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1133 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1088 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 689 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 653 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1231 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1041 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 980 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1076 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1103 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1125 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1103 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1005 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1037 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1022 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1078 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1093 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1096 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1577 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1069 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 959 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1015 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1070 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1027 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 968 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1038 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1074 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 997 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1132 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1140 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1190 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1136 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1104 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1030 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1056 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 588 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1016 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1055 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 963 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1145 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1057 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1042 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1001 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1067 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1039 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1090 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1028 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1027 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1002 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1058 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1109 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1110 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1097 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1054 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1097 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1068 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1074 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1099 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1074 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1099 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1145 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1303 Views

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