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Let's work with your figures... Shannow Send a noteboard - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM
I agree that the bottom rung of AS are vastly weaker than the top tiers. I just think the main characters in the series are much closer to the top than to the bottom.

Nynaeve is in the top 1% of all women in strength, I'd even postulate that the female forsaken could all be in the top 10% with very little difference in total strength... I won't claim I think that's a fact, there's enough evidence to show that there could be as much as a 15% spread if you include Moghedien.

If there was all that much difference between Lanfear, Graendal and Mesaana it would have been noted by the BA women who have felt their strength. Sheriam only notes that there is a "very strong" woman outside of her tent, but she doesn't know which woman it is so IMO their strengths are close enough to be difficult to judge between them. If Mesaana was 20% lower than Graendal Sheriam would realize which FS was standing outside. Likewise, Alviarin notes that Graendal and Lanfear both allowed her to feel their strength, but rather than postulate that Mesaana must be weaker, she immediately jumps to Mesaana is posing as an AS.

Elayne's potential is probably about 25% weaker than this level (90), which puts her around a 65... Cadsuane another 15% below that would make her about a 55, Moiraine 15% below that makes her about a 45... then the smaller levels between AS start, Sheriam could be a 40 (10% less than Moiraine)... but by the time you get down to the bottom level AS you are at about a 15 (Daigian could be a 10), but there.


Logain is able to break free from 5 average Aes Sedai. Egwene is about 2.5 times as strong as an average Aes Sedai. So that means that Logain could break free from Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

In order to break free from a shield, you have to be MUCH stronger than the strength of the channelers holding the shield. So that means Logain has to be significantly stronger than the EFFECTIVE strength of Egwene and Elayne combined (both at full strength).

So, if Egwene is at 65 and Elayne is at 65, then that puts them together at more than 120. And for Logain to be able to break free from that would mean he has to be MUCH stronger than their combined strength. And I'm talking about his EFFECTIVE strength, versus their EFFECTIVE strength.

So EFFECTIVELY, a male Forsaken channeler has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene.

And since Lanfear is effectively equal to a top male Forsaken, Lanfear has to be more than twice as strong as Egwene in ABSOLUTE terms (in other words, in terms of brute strength alone).

So if you put Lanfear at 100, then Egwene has to be below 50. In fact, a strength of 40-45 fits the evidence perfectly.

45 would also make Egwene stronger than Amys and Melaine combined - one who is of Moiraine strength and the other who is of average strength.
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 9030 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1846 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1801 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1606 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1691 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1270 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1872 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1583 Views
Indeed, and not only that - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1266 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1308 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 827 Views
why? - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1399 Views
Re: why? - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1459 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1434 Views
and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1353 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1202 Views
Re: and yet RJ does - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1267 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1415 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1178 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1093 Views
Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1107 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1170 Views
Re: Meh... - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1460 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1388 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1348 Views
Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1236 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1221 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 800 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1319 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1343 Views
the obvious answer - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1183 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1225 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1173 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1355 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1459 Views
I think all the main characters were forced - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1323 Views
agreed! - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1238 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1251 Views
What? Where? *NM* - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1299 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1247 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1193 Views
Don't links amplify stength? - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1156 Views
The opposite, actually. - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1243 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1391 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1288 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 715 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1412 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1332 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1534 Views
uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1379 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1256 Views
yup *NM* - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 660 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1329 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1519 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1285 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1269 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1244 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1240 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1198 Views
agreed - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1158 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 727 Views
I'll check *NM* - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 676 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1297 Views
No people just interpret things differently - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1097 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 1055 Views
You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1159 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1160 Views
Re: You also forget something. - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1177 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1162 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 1070 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 1108 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 1095 Views
I cannot. That's the point... - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1145 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1161 Views
Sorry, but no... - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1166 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1652 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1149 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 1046 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 1083 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1147 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 1071 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 1038 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 1134 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1142 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 1048 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1231 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1198 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1252 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1212 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1185 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 1082 Views
Explain one thing to me... - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1119 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 620 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 1074 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1114 Views
Can you provide the quote? - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 1038 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1226 Views
which is also suspect - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1142 Views
No it's not - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1103 Views
we're in agreement - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 1060 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1142 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1103 Views
I don't think it's a lie - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1146 Views
Agreed - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 1101 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 1093 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 1058 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1132 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1175 Views
I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1185 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1194 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1140 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1178 Views
Why are you entertaining this? - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1125 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1131 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1164 Views
of course it's about skill - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1152 Views
Not it isn't! - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1178 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1245 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1361 Views

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