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Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM

The 1-100 is a RELATIVE scale, not an absolute scale and thus what wiki says does not apply. We do not know the standard deviation, so we don't know what exactly the mean is in that scale. It will certainly not be 50, based on the books.

What do you mean by a relative scale here? And how are you assuming that this is what Sidious is implying? He's always characterized it as absolute, with 100 representing the number of units of power Rand can channel, and 1 the number of units Morghase can.

Because the post title says "relative strengths" and he says that 100 represents Rand's level. All the others' strengths are relative to Rand.

More importantly, RJ said very clearly that effective strength had a bell curve distribution. He did not mention any relative scale at all, only that there were 21 levels to channeling strength. I see no reason for us to work with some mysterious relative scale in this already complicated situation.

Yes, I agree. Though if RJ had 21 levels, I would assume some are less than 1 standard deviation apart.
And a mean of 50 is quite well supported within the text. It just goes against what Siddy and Shannow have assumed for years because they never let the implications of RJ's bell curve statement sink in.

Well, to be quite honest, the bell curve reaches out to infinity in each direction, so limiting to 100 is kinda silly. But we have a put a limit, so let's say it IS 100.
In that case, 50 is the mean, but what is the standard deviation? If RJ has said that 62.5% of all channelers in RL are stronger than the weakest AS (based on your quote that 62.5% of channelers are strong enough to BE AS), then, that means the weakest AS is much less than one standard deviation from the mean of 50. In fact, she is less than 1/2 a standard deviation from the mean.

So, at one standard deviation from the mean, the strength level between average and one-SD stronger AS is twice that of the difference between average and weakest. As you move futher out, you will see that the difference in strength between the channeler in question and the average larger and larger compared to the difference between average AS and weakest AS.
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8559 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1709 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1674 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1484 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1590 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1162 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1580 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1467 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1162 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1205 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 777 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1281 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1350 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1315 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1235 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1107 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1168 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1318 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1063 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1007 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1002 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1066 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1354 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1280 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1194 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1121 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1120 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 745 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1224 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1241 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1080 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1122 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1069 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1243 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1328 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1213 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1144 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1148 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1200 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1134 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1090 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1039 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1135 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1057 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1245 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1292 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1261 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1178 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 661 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1233 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1198 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1432 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1275 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1155 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 617 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1234 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1421 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1172 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1111 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1144 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1146 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1077 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1041 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1016 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1060 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1059 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1075 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 673 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 639 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1198 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1001 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 938 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 599 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1036 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1064 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1085 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1064 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 967 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 997 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 982 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1024 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1026 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1053 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1536 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1031 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 925 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 981 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1026 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 978 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 922 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 991 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1042 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 963 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1078 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1091 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1152 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1098 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1071 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 989 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1012 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 569 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 973 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1019 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 927 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1108 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1019 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1005 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 955 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1024 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 998 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1054 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 993 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 995 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 958 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1017 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1068 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1059 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1046 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1019 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1056 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1028 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 612 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1034 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1036 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1045 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1030 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1053 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 978 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1111 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1259 Views
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