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This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM
Aviendha states clearly that Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined. Amys is on Moiraine's strength level, and Melaine is equal to a very strong Aes Sedai.

So if Egwene can overpower them combined, then it means either they are below the average woman in strength, or Egwene is stronger than Lanfear.

It's one or the other. There is no other option if your Bell Curve model is applied.


"direct quotes"... there are clear conflicts with them! Aviendha tells us that Amys and Melaine are not as strong combined as Egwene, which seems straight forward enough, until a woman weaker than either of them is capable of shielding her? When Amys who is stronger than Silviana could not?

Nynaeve being able to shield Talaan, when she couldn't shield Elayne? How about Sorilea being suddenly strong enough to duplicate Cadsuane's weaves in TGS? Earlier in the series should could barely Channel enough to hold a flickering flame!

IMO there simply isn't enough information to accurately place most women on anything other than a relative "who is stronger than who" list... personally I believe RJ did this somewhat deliberately so that he had freedom to write things as he wanted ... like Nynaeve being held by 2 "average" sisters in Ebou Dar etc... he couldn't very well introduce another powerful channeler just for that reason... so he fudged a little, leaving massive gaps for our interpretations.

I'm inclined to believe that Egwene is not stronger than Amys and Melaine combined as there is too much information which conflict and Aviendha could simply have meant that Egwene would be able to defeat them combined since she is more skilled... alternatively we can say that Silviana was only able to hold the shield because Egwene was too tired to fight it... either way has it's problems.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8561 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1709 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1675 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1487 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1591 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1162 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1580 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1468 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1163 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1206 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 779 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1281 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1350 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1316 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1236 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1108 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1168 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1319 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 1063 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 1008 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 1003 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 1068 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1356 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1281 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1194 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1121 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1121 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 747 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1226 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1242 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1083 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1123 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 1070 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1245 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1330 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1214 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1145 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1149 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1201 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1134 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1090 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 1041 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1136 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 1058 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1245 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1293 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1262 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1179 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 661 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1235 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1199 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1433 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1276 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1157 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 617 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1234 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1421 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1173 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1112 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1144 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1147 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 1078 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 1043 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 1017 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 1063 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1059 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1075 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 673 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 639 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1199 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 1002 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 939 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 601 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 1037 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 1064 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1087 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 1065 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 969 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 998 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 983 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 1025 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 1027 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 1054 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1536 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 1031 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 927 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 982 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 1027 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 980 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 924 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 992 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 1042 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 963 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 1078 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1093 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1152 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1099 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 1072 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 989 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 1013 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 570 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 973 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 1020 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 927 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1109 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 1020 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 1008 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 957 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 1026 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 1000 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 1054 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 994 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 995 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 960 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 1018 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 1071 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 1060 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 1047 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 1019 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 1057 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 1029 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 612 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 1035 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 1036 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 1046 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 1030 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 1055 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 978 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1113 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1261 Views
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