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I can see your points there Larry Send a noteboard - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM
A friend of mine, Paul Smith, wrote this essay earlier today in response to an earlier essay of mine on genre sacred cows and discussion of such. Since he has a few links to related discussions, I suggest you just click on the link and read his arguments.


But it seems to me that Paul Smith makes a bit of a mess of things by mixing two categories of things. The first consists of the flaws in LotR that can be considered flaws in a more or less objective judgement - to wit, the less well-written passages, the not too spectacular plot, the lack of depth in most characters. The second, however, consists of things in LotR that are irritating to Paul Smith and modern readers in general, perhaps also to many readers at the time of writing, but that really can't be called an objective flaw. One may find the sexism and the views on nature vs. industry outdated, silly or even revolting, but that doesn't mean the book is qualitatively worse for containing these things.

And there it becomes a little ironic, since one of the people at Westeros defending Viriconium and Harrison - and then again in fewer words you yourself, Larry - blames his opponents for judging the book for things they want in it that aren't there, and not for the things that are there. For failing to "judging the text based on its own parameters", to quote you. Seems to me that Paul Smith opens himself up - perhaps without intending to - to the charge of being guilty of the same thing. So Tolkien has themes that he doesn't like, and doesn't have things that he *would* have liked (i.e. gender equality). But if Paul Smith is supposed to take the same stance as you and as that Richard guy on Westeros, he really should not mention these things in an essay on why LotR is flawed.


I'll just only note that the "Richard" in that one thread is author Richard Morgan, who does have a dog in this hunt.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1798 Views
Nonsense, at least in part - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1373 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 1171 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 1201 Views
i agree, and furthermore... - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1269 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1200 Views
Mno - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1287 Views
Have to agree. - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1260 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 1078 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 1151 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 1207 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 1016 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1224 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1233 Views
Fair enough. - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1235 Views
Also: the writing is crap. - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 1159 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 498 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 1173 Views
To the end - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 1051 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1230 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1232 Views
and I will - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 955 Views
that's fair enough then - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 1021 Views
so I hear - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 983 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 1104 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 1030 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 1214 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 601 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 1049 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 989 Views
well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 998 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 1040 Views
one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 1073 Views
Re: one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 1114 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 1014 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 1145 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 1101 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 1017 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 1118 Views
Agreed, although, - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 1079 Views
None of them are "geared towards grown ups" - it's still a YA series. - 29/07/2010 07:03:24 PM 1017 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 999 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 1130 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 1126 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1068 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1219 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 527 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 995 Views
Oh, agreed. - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 1146 Views
Incidentall - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 1112 Views
Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1232 Views
Re: Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 1112 Views
Ah - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 1164 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 1204 Views
I can see your points there - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 1124 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 1142 Views
all art forms have sacred cows - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1214 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 1083 Views
women deserve black lung too!! - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 993 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 1057 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1389 Views
Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 1155 Views
Re: Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 1128 Views
Probably in the sense... - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 1029 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 993 Views
agreed. *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 519 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1394 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1477 Views
No it wasn't. - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 1165 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 1159 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 1159 Views
This. *NM* - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1241 Views

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