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I can see your points there Larry Send a noteboard - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM
A friend of mine, Paul Smith, wrote this essay earlier today in response to an earlier essay of mine on genre sacred cows and discussion of such. Since he has a few links to related discussions, I suggest you just click on the link and read his arguments.


But it seems to me that Paul Smith makes a bit of a mess of things by mixing two categories of things. The first consists of the flaws in LotR that can be considered flaws in a more or less objective judgement - to wit, the less well-written passages, the not too spectacular plot, the lack of depth in most characters. The second, however, consists of things in LotR that are irritating to Paul Smith and modern readers in general, perhaps also to many readers at the time of writing, but that really can't be called an objective flaw. One may find the sexism and the views on nature vs. industry outdated, silly or even revolting, but that doesn't mean the book is qualitatively worse for containing these things.

And there it becomes a little ironic, since one of the people at Westeros defending Viriconium and Harrison - and then again in fewer words you yourself, Larry - blames his opponents for judging the book for things they want in it that aren't there, and not for the things that are there. For failing to "judging the text based on its own parameters", to quote you. Seems to me that Paul Smith opens himself up - perhaps without intending to - to the charge of being guilty of the same thing. So Tolkien has themes that he doesn't like, and doesn't have things that he *would* have liked (i.e. gender equality). But if Paul Smith is supposed to take the same stance as you and as that Richard guy on Westeros, he really should not mention these things in an essay on why LotR is flawed.


I'll just only note that the "Richard" in that one thread is author Richard Morgan, who does have a dog in this hunt.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1764 Views
Nonsense, at least in part - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1345 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 1138 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 1169 Views
i agree, and furthermore... - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1241 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1166 Views
Mno - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1252 Views
Have to agree. - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1223 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 1048 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 1096 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 1174 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 990 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1195 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1193 Views
Fair enough. - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1204 Views
Also: the writing is crap. - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 1127 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 486 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 1146 Views
To the end - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 1016 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1192 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1206 Views
and I will - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 927 Views
that's fair enough then - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 987 Views
so I hear - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 950 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 1075 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 1002 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 1170 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 589 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 1015 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 955 Views
well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 966 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 1011 Views
one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 1048 Views
Re: one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 1083 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 985 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 1113 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 1072 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 985 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 1088 Views
Agreed, although, - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 1049 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 969 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 1092 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 1094 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1039 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1189 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 515 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 971 Views
Oh, agreed. - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 1117 Views
Incidentall - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 1084 Views
Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1200 Views
Re: Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 1078 Views
Ah - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 1133 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 1164 Views
I can see your points there - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 1060 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 1112 Views
all art forms have sacred cows - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1167 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 1052 Views
women deserve black lung too!! - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 960 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 1027 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1341 Views
Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 1121 Views
Re: Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 1087 Views
Probably in the sense... - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 997 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 966 Views
agreed. *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 504 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1366 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1446 Views
No it wasn't. - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 1123 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 1117 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 1128 Views
This. *NM* - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1209 Views

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