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Re: what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... Camilla Send a noteboard - 15/08/2012 07:39:24 AM
Tyrion is perhaps the most developed character among them. So far, anyway. Together with Jon Snow and perhaps Arya and Daenerys, he has Overcome Obstacles in life, but he is the only one who seems to have arrived at an equilibrium. I suppose that may mean the latter three will either develop or disappoint in what follows.

i kind of think he is only developing the ones he's keeping alive for longer than a book or 2...

2. World details: Ah, the curse of epic fantasy. Martin has caught it too. In Jordan you get dresses and women's names; in Martin there are banners and castles. What could possibly be their purpose? There are too many to keep track of in any sensible way, and I cannot imagine there will be much reward for doing so. Nor does it quite succeed in creating the impression of colour and variety, which I think is what is aimed for, because it takes too long in the description of it. Hopefully, he has got it out of his system in the first book and will turn to other matters in what follows.

yeah. i wish he'd shut up about everyone's symbols and castles. who cares...

The layering of histories is common currency in epic fantasy, and I confess I get a little fed up with it. Children, first men &c. I assume it will have some bearing on the plot, otherwise it is just a poor man's Tolkien with rape thrown in. Much depends on how Martin plays this.

i love this statement. so true.

3. Plot: It seems blatantly obvious to me at this point (indeed, it seemed obvious quite early in the book) that Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark's sister Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen. I assume he raped her (the only possible justification for the rape theme that pervades the series) and that she made her brother swear to keep the child's parentage secret so that Robert would not kill it. I have heard Jon Snow's parentage presented as one of the great mysteries of the series. This depresses me.

heh, sounds like figuring out the plot of the usual suspects in the first 5 minutes

I am more interested in how the deadly grass will play out (the type that seems to work just like the ice-zombies do). And I imagine Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen will be the heroes of the piece, with Tyrion Lannister and Bran Stark between them. I must also confess to some curiosity as to what Stannis Baratheon is up to. The Game of Thrones is precisely the most attractive side to the series so far: I want to know how the intrigues play out.

me too.

Rape seems to be another major one. I have heard that Martin has said that while rape is pretty much everywhere in the series, it is never condoned. Well, you can take that with a lump of salt. I already mentioned Daenerys' wedding night. I forgot to mention that she falls in love with her rapist. Granted, in the Seven Kingdoms, rape is generally presented as a wicked man's weapon. But somehow, that is not applicable to the Others (by which I do not mean the icy evilly zombie-people but the Dothraki) on the other side of the sea (seriously, can you give me some more Orientalist stereotypes to go?).

agreed!

Women in general is a problem for Martin. I think that like Jordan he suffers from the delusion that he writes strong female characters. Instead we get Catelyn Stark (Mother, relegated to the supportive sidelines, although Martin should get props for highlighting the frustrating side of that), Cersei Lannister (Mother, using sex for control, also drunk on power and Evil), and Sansa Stark (Headless Chicken, although here too I am tempted to give Martin a nod for showing the uselessness of her fantasy world). Daenerys Targaryen (Wife and almost Mother, whose narrative is depressing in as much as she falls in love with her rapist and then uses sex to sway him -- because really people, that is what women are all about) might offer some hope, but I am not holding my breath (in the end she seems to gain power, but only through her supernatural powers: women need dragons to kick ass?). And then there is Arya Stark, the vulnerable Child playing at men's games with her sword, but really lost in the world. Arya is the one I have the most hope for. I like that Martin at least opens the floor to questions of female roles, but I hope she does not end up getting rescued by someone.

could not agree with you more here...

I did like the fact that Martin killed off Ned Stark. It showed an ability to engage with the problem of moral action in an unjust world. I hope he will keep exploring that (rather than, say, just have a load of characters raped). I also see traces of the same topic in the Night Watch (but with some faulty logic here and there). It will be interesting to see whether Martin can actually juggle all these balls or whether he has just picked a lot of shiny ones and thrown them into the air.

ha! and yes... that's exactly what i thought.

Finally, history. I can see the allusions to the War of Roses, though not as much as I had expected. There certainly does not seem to be any clear overlap between the two. I imagine the main overlap will be the reconciliation of two warring factions through a figure who takes part in both. Say, Jon Snow.

Knowing epic fantasy, though, there will probably be more characters, more plot lines and quite possibly more nations any moment now.

right on. i can kinda see the war of the roses parallels... but yeah, not in any super obvious fashions. which is really ok... i wouldn't want to read yet another book on the war of the roses... already did that! :D


Which one?
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 7996 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 1983 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 1780 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 1730 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 1837 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 1921 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 1756 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 1888 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 1722 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 1849 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 1691 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 1697 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 1770 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 1758 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 1821 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 1896 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 1699 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 1678 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 1634 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 1740 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 1931 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 1847 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 1718 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 1672 Views
Re: what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 07:39:24 AM 1818 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 1784 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 765 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 821 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 821 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 1783 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 1750 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 1629 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 1736 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 1609 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 1732 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 1698 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 1747 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 1781 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 1672 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 1681 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1482 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1035 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 867 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 911 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 859 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 897 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 862 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1011 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 941 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 890 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 808 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 865 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 797 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 931 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 773 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 1611 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 1709 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2107 Views

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