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Re: You are missing the point. Camilla Send a noteboard - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM
Nobody is arguing that she does not say yes at that point. The arguemnt is that she is 13 and therefore not in a position to give consent, and that it is therefore especially problematic that Martin emphasises the consent to such an extent.

I would agree with regards to that scene alone. However, later on it is emphasised that Dany does not enjoy these initial encounters with Drogo (consent or not) and does not do so until Drogo starts to respect her wishes, so her consent may be technically given but she's still not happy about the situation (something that should have been emphasised in the first scene more).

However, whilst it may have been written in modern times and be set in another world, the books are very clearly closely based on the real medieval period (moreso than any other work of fantasy I know of, with the possible exception of Kate Elliott's CROWN OF STARS series) when children were expected to marry and bear offspring of their own, often at exceptionally young ages. The issues of how this clashes with modern sensibilities are very deliberately placed in the narrative. It's meant to be problematic and make readers question the situation. It's also interesting to see how this scene is dealt with by people of other nationalities: in many European countries the age of consent is 14, with informal tolerance of things happening a year or two earlier, and in such cases the scene is regarded rather differently (to the point where the age issue is disregarded and the consent one becomes paramount) from in the UK and USA where it is significantly higher.

As I said earlier, I think that scene is hamstrung by GRRM being unusually timid (perhaps rightfully so given the circumstances) and backtracking a little from the full unpleasentness of the situation. The HBO series definitely handled this scene better, one of the few instances where it is possible to say that.


Again. That does not seem to include the wedding night. I completely agree that between the wedding night and some later date, she is fairly violently raped by her husband. But the wedding night is presented in a very different way. Hence my distinction. The only one of these scenes that I am describing as "seductive" or "erotic" is the wedding night (although later encounters where she consents or even initiates are also highly problematic).
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 8671 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 2230 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 2036 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 1971 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 2090 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 2224 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 2035 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 2116 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 1964 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 2100 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 1945 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 2047 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 2014 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 2003 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 2102 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 2212 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 1945 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 1979 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 1882 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 1999 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 2172 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 2140 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 1977 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 1914 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 2058 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 920 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 993 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 971 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 2047 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 2008 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 1870 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 1999 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 1859 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 1975 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 2039 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 1990 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 2051 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 1906 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 1921 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1699 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1213 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 1023 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 1082 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 986 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 1069 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 994 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1142 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 1071 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 1057 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 933 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 1006 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 919 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 1077 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 934 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 1834 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 1945 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2501 Views

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