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The wedding night is statutory. I would describe the later rapes as fairly violent. Camilla Send a noteboard - 17/08/2012 12:13:26 PM
Yes, I've heard of that defence, but it does not really work. Or, rather, it misses the point. While the setting of the books may be "medieval" (though I note he is happy to change other sides to Medieval society, like the lack of dragons), Martin is very much writing from a present-day position (and within a present-day cultural context. His choice to present a 13-yearold girl's rape (yes) as an erotic seduction with an emphasis on consent (she is 13!) therefore really bothers me. The fact that he then goes on to describe violent rape of the same girl before she falls in love with her rapist is my second problem with the Daenerys storyline.
Don't even get me started on all the times I get "you shouldn't apply your contemporary values to SoI&F" by idiots who don't even realize they are doing exactly that with their pro-commoner, pro-feminist, pro-abolitionist arguments.

The fact that women were raped in the Medieval period does not dictate Martin's way of presenting that.
Indeed, right is right and wrong is wrong.

It is a completely different cultural standard than today, and you seem to want to judge these characters with today's standards, instead of losing yourself in their world.
THIS! While true in its own right, I hear it way too much from people who have not the faintest clue which one of us is using contextual standards and which one is operating out of modern prejudices. And then I can always go to the CMB where people are all too willing to ascribe archaic qualities to the standard of morality I use in discussing SoI&F. 8}

As I said, Martin writes within today's cultural standards. And the fact that he emphasises the seduction and consent in that scene really makes it worse as far as I am concerned.
I think Martin's point is that this creepy situation is what she's stuck in, and she kind of lucks out in getting a decent guy, for his culture and position. You're not supposed to be admiring the love story so much as understanding that women are often placed in such situations.

And the scene as written does not portray violence. Individual consent is not an issue in the series, as it often was not in many cultures (calling it a medieval issue is grossly minimizing the scope of the practice, and rather unfair, considering that the medieval period spawned the only culture with a real "feminist" ideal; there could never have been a Seneca Falls without the Magna Carta, which was a product of its time). By all the laws and practices of that world and much of the real world, Daenerys had an obligation to cooperate in that scene, and both the power and the moral authority to engage in intercourse were entirely in Drogo's hands. His groping her is not sexual harassment, but the familiarizing touch of a man used to obtaining consent from an irrationally wary creature to participate in a cooperative physical endeavor.

It does not change the fact that a grown man is having sex with a 13 year old, and I have called Martin out for writing such a thing in the past, but I cannot see that scene being called rape by any standards aside from applying modern legal standards to a primitive & tribal culture, where 13 is on the cusp of middle age. The fact that intercourse is not pleasant for Daenerys does not change the fact that she is consenting to it nor does it make Drogo a rapist.

The issue of consent, especially in regard to marriage is touched on more fully in the rest of the series (if you have watched season 2 of the show you can probably guess another character whose arc shows the flipside of the societal expectations of marriage), and as djwilson300 notes, part of the reading experience of the story is sorting out the propaganda and family legends to the reality, which casts a new light on another supposed incident of rape from GoT, when more backstory is fleshed out in subsequent books.

I hope so. And I do approve of introducing early on what is to become important later. I hope this means I won't have to read any more about those banners, though.

This does not bode well.

I am also glad to hear he problematisest he Starks = good, Lannisters = bad. While it was not quite clear cut in the first book, it could do with some more shading in.
I think the gray areas in this situation are exaggerated. While the Starks are not always "nice" or in the right, morally, they are still the good guys. Even when one of them goes over to the Dark Side it is presented in such a way that I have trouble convincing people here that that character is now evil. IMO, the only way the Lannisters are ever justified or presented as "good" is in the PoV Trap (aside from Tyrion, of course, but his character is hardly static in that equilibrium you noted).
structured procrastinator
This message last edited by Camilla on 17/08/2012 at 12:13:49 PM
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 7996 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 1983 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 1780 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 1730 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 1837 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 1921 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 1756 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 1888 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 1722 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 1849 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 1691 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 1697 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 1770 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 1758 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 1821 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 1896 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 1699 Views
How is that a violent rape? At worst it would be statutory rape. - 17/08/2012 11:53:44 AM 1729 Views
The wedding night is statutory. I would describe the later rapes as fairly violent. - 17/08/2012 12:13:26 PM 1771 Views
That was her only sex scene, until she induces him to have outdoor sex to get pregnant - 17/08/2012 07:20:09 PM 1774 Views
It is not necessary to provide a scene - 17/08/2012 10:49:20 PM 1655 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 1678 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 1634 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 1740 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 1931 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 1847 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 1718 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 1672 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 1784 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 765 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 821 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 821 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 1783 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 1750 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 1629 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 1736 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 1609 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 1732 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 1698 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 1747 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 1781 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 1672 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 1681 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1482 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1035 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 867 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 911 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 859 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 897 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 862 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1011 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 941 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 890 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 808 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 865 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 797 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 931 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 773 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 1611 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 1709 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2107 Views

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