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Re: You are missing the point. Camilla Send a noteboard - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM
Nobody is arguing that she does not say yes at that point. The arguemnt is that she is 13 and therefore not in a position to give consent, and that it is therefore especially problematic that Martin emphasises the consent to such an extent.

I would agree with regards to that scene alone. However, later on it is emphasised that Dany does not enjoy these initial encounters with Drogo (consent or not) and does not do so until Drogo starts to respect her wishes, so her consent may be technically given but she's still not happy about the situation (something that should have been emphasised in the first scene more).

However, whilst it may have been written in modern times and be set in another world, the books are very clearly closely based on the real medieval period (moreso than any other work of fantasy I know of, with the possible exception of Kate Elliott's CROWN OF STARS series) when children were expected to marry and bear offspring of their own, often at exceptionally young ages. The issues of how this clashes with modern sensibilities are very deliberately placed in the narrative. It's meant to be problematic and make readers question the situation. It's also interesting to see how this scene is dealt with by people of other nationalities: in many European countries the age of consent is 14, with informal tolerance of things happening a year or two earlier, and in such cases the scene is regarded rather differently (to the point where the age issue is disregarded and the consent one becomes paramount) from in the UK and USA where it is significantly higher.

As I said earlier, I think that scene is hamstrung by GRRM being unusually timid (perhaps rightfully so given the circumstances) and backtracking a little from the full unpleasentness of the situation. The HBO series definitely handled this scene better, one of the few instances where it is possible to say that.


Again. That does not seem to include the wedding night. I completely agree that between the wedding night and some later date, she is fairly violently raped by her husband. But the wedding night is presented in a very different way. Hence my distinction. The only one of these scenes that I am describing as "seductive" or "erotic" is the wedding night (although later encounters where she consents or even initiates are also highly problematic).
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 13/08/2012 10:48:37 PM 9067 Views
Fascinating. - 13/08/2012 11:40:22 PM 2459 Views
Re: Fascinating. - 14/08/2012 06:23:13 AM 2265 Views
Mainly the names. - 17/08/2012 12:07:21 AM 2202 Views
Regarding Daenerys as Henry Tudor - 14/08/2012 06:36:37 AM 2338 Views
Not really. - 14/08/2012 07:01:36 PM 2436 Views
Shocking - 15/08/2012 06:49:18 AM 2294 Views
On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 01:19:35 AM 2310 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 02:02:42 AM 2179 Views
Firstly, Camilla is a she. Secondly, though I won't speak for her, regarding the rape in the novels, - 14/08/2012 02:23:19 AM 2328 Views
When does he use rape in an erotic manner? - 14/08/2012 05:48:59 AM 2181 Views
like all the time. - 14/09/2012 04:45:42 PM 2272 Views
Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 06:18:58 AM 2231 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 14/08/2012 04:37:17 PM 2226 Views
Re: Camilla is indeed a she. - 15/08/2012 06:39:31 AM 2321 Views
I for one never saw any of the rapes as erotic - 21/08/2012 05:04:11 PM 2461 Views
Re: On the Rape issue.... - 14/08/2012 06:17:55 AM 2166 Views
House Banners/Sigils - 21/08/2012 04:56:07 PM 2233 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 02:08:59 AM 2119 Views
Re: A Game of Thrones by George R. R. Martin - 14/08/2012 06:25:11 AM 2230 Views
I think you misread one part - 14/08/2012 04:51:34 PM 2388 Views
Currently kicking myself - 15/08/2012 06:43:36 AM 2377 Views
Re: Currently kicking myself - 16/08/2012 10:11:01 AM 2211 Views
what a great review. you echo my thoughts quite a bit... - 15/08/2012 01:21:38 AM 2131 Views
Wait...why would you waste time reading this fluff series when it's out on TV? - 16/08/2012 12:10:32 AM 2284 Views
Trollolololololololllll *NM* - 16/08/2012 01:02:22 AM 1083 Views
Se noteboard. *NM* - 16/08/2012 06:29:39 AM 1112 Views
Game, set, and match *NM* - 18/08/2012 03:50:38 PM 1071 Views
I think the TV series handles the problematic Dany/Drogo relationship better - 17/08/2012 12:20:16 AM 2284 Views
I think it messed it up by showing forced intercourse without the verbal consent Drogo DID obtain - 17/08/2012 12:07:14 PM 2235 Views
I still find it difficult to read it as anything other than a coerced consent - 17/08/2012 01:08:15 PM 2090 Views
A perpetrator-less crime then. - 17/08/2012 07:26:26 PM 2223 Views
Exactly! I'm on board, Cannoli. - 18/08/2012 07:45:56 PM 2083 Views
You are missing the point. - 18/08/2012 11:11:33 PM 2195 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:25:30 PM 2254 Views
Re: You are missing the point. - 19/08/2012 01:40:11 PM 2213 Views
So, you're saying that Juliet was raped by Romeo??? - 21/08/2012 05:24:56 PM 2282 Views
The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 12:08:49 AM 2133 Views
Re: The later books do add more context and change some of this - 19/08/2012 07:27:59 AM 2146 Views
That makes sense - 19/08/2012 02:35:36 PM 1909 Views
Jesus Christ another fucking thread about rape and fantasy. - 19/08/2012 01:47:43 AM 1323 Views
Perhaps if reading other people's views makes you so angry, you should avoid reading them? *NM* - 19/08/2012 02:37:03 PM 1152 Views
High blood pressure can kill, I hear. *NM* - 19/08/2012 03:33:14 PM 1210 Views
Nonsense. - 19/08/2012 03:33:39 PM 1105 Views
Fixed it for you. - 19/08/2012 08:22:18 PM 1205 Views
Shake the sand out of your vagina bitch. *NM* - 20/08/2012 06:35:32 AM 1109 Views
Gosh, this is really turning into something fun. - 20/08/2012 07:15:01 AM 1261 Views
Huh. I just came to the odd realization... - 20/08/2012 08:29:56 PM 1203 Views
Don't lock it! - 21/08/2012 05:11:34 AM 1169 Views
Yes, I'm aware, or I might have locked it already. - 21/08/2012 06:17:29 PM 1039 Views
I'd ask that you do lock it. - 21/08/2012 10:00:48 PM 1111 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 22/08/2012 06:26:04 PM 1028 Views
I may join you - 20/08/2012 10:14:50 PM 1184 Views
COME AT ME BRO *NM* - 21/08/2012 05:09:34 AM 1050 Views
The interesting part is... - 28/08/2012 01:39:49 AM 2060 Views
That is the best written and most insightful review of that book I have read - 01/09/2012 05:38:00 PM 2156 Views
i'm rereading the series now and yeah there is a LOT of rape - 14/09/2012 04:38:27 PM 2747 Views

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