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Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. Ellestra Send a noteboard - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM
The call for diversity was essentially based on the fact that many here would be content and happy to discuss, in the book club, ten books, one after the other, that are all derivative crap, just on the basis of the fact that they are sci-fi or fantasy.

As for my point, it was not that something relevant ceases to be science fiction. However, it was that much of what is published as science fiction or fantasy is crap. I pointed out that much of this may have to do with the fact that the market drives the publishing industry. The masses have spoken, and they want more Tolkien clones and new spins on Orson Scott Card. When books that don't target a few set popular markets come out, it's because the publishing company is willing to take a risk based on their perceived strength of the book. The risk is less with a Tolkien clone, so formulaic, well-worn premises get repackaged just like Hollywood blockbusters get repackaged. I therefore disagree with the "90% of everything is crap" quote - a greater proportion of sci-fi and fantasy is crap than other literature.

This is the point where I disagree strongly. I mean I agree that the market is full of clones of anything that's been popular but again that's true for any genre. The mainstream is as prone to fads (especially the ones concerning "style" ) as anything else. Publishing industry thrives on this. That's why so many covers bear the "another [well known author name]". The trick is to find books that won't feel like you wasted your time (and money) afterwards. But that's something that different for each and everyone of us and it changes with time. There was a time when I stopped reading fantasy altogether. Lately I feel like mainstream literature is wasting my time - telling same stories but just in less and less comprehensible style.

As such, the labels "science fiction" and "fantasy" end up, perhaps not defining, but at least indicting the quality of stories written in those genres.

Furthermore, as I wrote in another response, many people will look at the "speculative" nature of a work and say (like my father did to The Lord of the Rings, "That's a pile of shit. Magic, orcs, elves and wizards - it's just too unrealistic for me." The difference between that book and the book on male prostitutes in Thailand you referenced is that the latter exist, and even if the setting is unreal for you, you can correct that by going to Thailand and meeting people who were abused as children and forced into prostitution. If it's historical, you can pull up photos that show the reality of the time period, or go to a museum to see art from that time and place. You can't do that with Tolkien because it never existed.

And you keep insisting in this thread that SF equals space ships, robots and mad scientists. As I said before Thailand, XIV century or Moon are just settings. They say nothing about how true the stories are, how much light they shed on human nature. Even if I went to Thailand and lived there I won't find that person or that life. His tale was told through the mind of a writer and is ultimately unreal. I've read to many times about how writers change truth to fit the story they were telling to believe in 'true stories'. Even if the setting can be visited the world in books in not the one we live in. It's even more true about historical novels where we get a skewed vision of someone centuries away.

I noted, quite specifically, the power of speculative fiction to comment on political, economic and social issues. Lem, Bulgakov, Zamyatin, Bulychev, Shvarts and others expressed dissent through speculative works. Of course, the ironic thing is that they lived in socialist countries with a planned economy that didn't focus publishing on market forces, which led to works with higher literary value being published. The literary establishment of the same system that repressed them in many cases promoted them actively. Sure, propaganda was also published (mostly crap), but the propaganda was also usually turned in as makulatura for recycling.

This is of course true but it doesn't mean that the quality SF cannot be written in free market. It's just harder to find because there is much more books generally. But I find nothing wrong in diversity.

In short, I expressed my opinion and I stand by it. The site may have a sci-fi/fantasy focus, but that doesn't mean that we should be reading Goodkind's Sword of Truth series (just because it's fantasy) instead of The Brothers Karamazov or a similar work of recognised literary merit (just because it's not).

And on this I agree with you wholeheartedly. The world will certainly be a better place with less Goodkind. :D
Evolution, just like gravity, works even if you don't believe in it.

Stupidity doesn't hurt but it kills.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2422 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1487 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1488 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 770 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 1411 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1492 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1544 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1457 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1456 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1484 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1427 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1483 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 1421 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1506 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1453 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1441 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1521 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1382 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1467 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1545 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1479 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1608 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1496 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1448 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1509 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1447 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1591 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1526 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1503 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1500 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 1367 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1539 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1439 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1442 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1725 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 1391 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1535 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1485 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1525 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1507 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1552 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1434 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 1302 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1419 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1493 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1427 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 691 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1470 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 1348 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1509 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1512 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1435 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1435 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 1440 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 1350 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1422 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1498 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 644 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1520 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1462 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1435 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 1369 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 1350 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1449 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1468 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1473 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1486 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1457 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1441 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1420 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1556 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1385 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 1405 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1408 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 1377 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 746 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1574 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1419 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 1411 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1411 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1580 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 1370 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1365 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1441 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 1367 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 1360 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 1396 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 1405 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 1281 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 1370 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 1408 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1536 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 694 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1420 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1430 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1499 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1452 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1429 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 1350 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 1352 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1500 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 1340 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 1348 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1410 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 1379 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1401 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 1305 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 687 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 1365 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 1409 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 2009 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 1353 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1485 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1529 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 1408 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1550 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1413 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 1333 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 1346 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1405 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 1357 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1551 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1397 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 1365 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 1385 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 1336 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1437 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 675 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1459 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1448 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 1308 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 1441 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 1391 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 1300 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 1365 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 1396 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1381 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1402 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 688 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 1345 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1463 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1388 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1485 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1444 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1416 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 1389 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1400 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 1363 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 766 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 692 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 1382 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 1388 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 1361 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 747 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1482 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 1350 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1386 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1456 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1415 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1403 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 1383 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1431 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 1358 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1571 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1470 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1503 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 1351 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 1323 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1513 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1425 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 1413 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1466 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1429 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1491 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1541 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1412 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1480 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 602 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 731 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 718 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1401 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 1340 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 1390 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 709 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 735 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 712 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1429 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 1227 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1513 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1445 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1404 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 1385 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1513 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1439 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1477 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 1383 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1535 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 1326 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1445 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 1417 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1442 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 1403 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 1386 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1441 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 1349 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1471 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 1410 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 1275 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1431 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1453 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1522 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1445 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1580 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1520 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 1413 Views

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