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perhaps some university will do a study imlad Send a noteboard - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM
A study to determine the ratio of "dross" to "gold" in the various genres. My guess is that there is just as a high a concentration of trash in the SF/F genre as there is in other fiction. Look at the shear size of the collection most bookstores and libraries have for other fiction. I just can't believe that a higher percentage of that is non-diversionary (non-popcorn) reading than what you find in SF/F.

Sure, a lot of stuff in my preferred genres are fluff, but I've found plenty that "has something to say." Shit, most of the Other Fiction I've read over my lifetime was just as much fluff.

And, I'd like to go on the record here: I do not believe WoT is much more than diversionary reading, although Jordan does seem to be trying to make some comments on gender roles, and that each of us has a dark side of ourselves within. But beyond that, it is pretty much mostly "popcorn."

As the work puts more and more distance between itself and reality, the risk of becoming simply a "diversion" increases. Certainly, the reader should be on the lookout for deeper messages, but that having been said, it's hard to really expect a deeper message from a lot of authors in the genre.

Jordan certainly provided a diversion and little more. The interesting thing is that Sanderson's novels show a much higher level of insight and thought, and so the series might end a bit "deeper", so to speak, than it would have if Jordan had written it.

To take the analogy of dwarves and racism, while such a story could prove a point, it also distances people from the historical realities of racism in the real world, which robs the issue of much of its complexity. On the one hand, it may make certain ideas about the inherent injustice in racism plain to people who wouldn't have thought about it that way, but on the other hand, many could dismiss it or see it as inapplicable to a real-world situation where they or their friends may be more emotionally involved. Of course, it might be very interesting to read.

The real point of this post is to try to encourage people to go beyond reading simply fantasy and science fiction because an incomparably large portion of it is little more than diversion. If it stirred a healthy debate, all the better. If people start to analyse their reading choices and wonder, "Am I missing something?" then they benefit.
Death to the Regressives of the GOP and the TeaParty. No mercy for Conservatives. Burn them all at the stake for the hateful satanists they are.
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In Support of Other Fiction - 01/12/2009 09:06:14 PM 2010 Views
- 01/12/2009 09:22:56 PM 1087 Views
Re: - 01/12/2009 09:28:04 PM 1053 Views
Wow...we were just Santified *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:16:21 PM 534 Views
Well, let me offer a diverging view on the topic of speculative fiction. - 01/12/2009 09:46:35 PM 981 Views
I would counter that the stripping away removes a level of reality. - 01/12/2009 10:05:28 PM 1058 Views
That's a Slippery Slope Because You Could Argue On the Same Basis That All Fiction Does That. - 01/12/2009 11:34:34 PM 1119 Views
I don't see the slippery slope, but rather, a confirmation of my original point. - 02/12/2009 01:41:24 AM 1062 Views
perhaps some university will do a study - 03/12/2009 03:55:54 PM 1023 Views
I'd like to see it - 03/12/2009 09:15:12 PM 1077 Views
I'll get to it once I finish my thesis - 03/12/2009 09:56:29 PM 1005 Views
If it looks like crap and smells like crap... - 03/12/2009 10:04:15 PM 1043 Views
I Think I'll Post a Thread on This. - 03/12/2009 06:47:05 PM 981 Views
I'd like to see it. - 03/12/2009 09:23:07 PM 1041 Views
Regarding depth in Jordan - 03/12/2009 09:31:19 PM 1052 Views
I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:05:40 PM 1022 Views
Re: I was thinking about that too - 03/12/2009 10:09:26 PM 1116 Views
Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:18:08 PM 1004 Views
Re: Destroying the Wheel is meaningless. - 03/12/2009 10:30:15 PM 1038 Views
I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:45:56 PM 1092 Views
Re: I Totally Missed That. - 04/12/2009 10:47:59 PM 1081 Views
I Don't Believe It Cursory, But Comparative. - 04/12/2009 11:29:36 PM 1164 Views
Publication bookend Y2K? - 05/12/2009 10:36:01 AM 1074 Views
They're Thick Bookends. - 05/12/2009 06:12:06 PM 1029 Views
I'll Try to Have It Up Tomorrow Early. - 04/12/2009 11:24:18 PM 1120 Views
I like it. - 01/12/2009 10:28:48 PM 1042 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:43:05 AM 1186 Views
I find Michel Houellebecq to be one of the most intriguing writers of our time - 01/12/2009 11:14:05 PM 1126 Views
And, in recent memory, Orwell was a first-rate writer. - 02/12/2009 01:44:29 AM 1124 Views
wait! there's somebody "dirtier" than Piers Anthony or Philip Jose Farmer??? - 03/12/2009 04:00:28 PM 1084 Views
PJF is dirty? - 04/12/2009 12:16:12 AM 961 Views
Nice post. - 02/12/2009 12:03:09 AM 1132 Views
Perhaps you're right. - 02/12/2009 01:47:10 AM 1007 Views
In its entirety? No. - 02/12/2009 02:00:10 PM 1047 Views
I agree! - 02/12/2009 12:17:10 AM 1251 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 01:50:22 AM 944 Views
I guess I'll break my silence after almost a month and a half... - 02/12/2009 12:23:07 AM 1141 Views
Popcorn? - 02/12/2009 12:31:44 AM 1064 Views
Yes - 02/12/2009 12:39:10 AM 1117 Views
Lovecraft? - 02/12/2009 12:51:55 AM 1107 Views
Re-read what I said - 02/12/2009 12:55:08 AM 1179 Views
aahh - 02/12/2009 09:26:40 AM 1033 Views
Larry, please tell me you weren't... - 03/12/2009 04:33:32 PM 911 Views
I concur - 02/12/2009 12:27:13 AM 1014 Views
I like your framing of the issue (and Shannara is the Taco Bell of writing). - 02/12/2009 02:03:51 AM 1078 Views
Thank you - 02/12/2009 09:30:42 AM 1030 Views
more like the mom&pop greasy-spoon diner of writing *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:00:21 PM 497 Views
I'm going to put this in my sig, if you don't mind. - 02/12/2009 03:31:13 AM 1103 Views
hehehe - 02/12/2009 09:31:28 AM 988 Views
Am i the only one who reads books for fun? - 02/12/2009 12:33:52 AM 1129 Views
There isn't necessarily a contradiction - 02/12/2009 12:38:43 AM 1061 Views
I certainly didn't read The Lost Symbol for ANY cultural, intellectual or edifying reason. - 02/12/2009 02:05:45 AM 1033 Views
it didn't come across that way - 03/12/2009 05:15:36 PM 1058 Views
Of course not. Personally, I don't touch anything other than mind candy when I'm in school, - 02/12/2009 03:29:23 AM 997 Views
one of the things that is important to me in books/shows - 03/12/2009 05:20:29 PM 937 Views
We agree! - 03/12/2009 08:03:00 PM 1029 Views
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is a science fiction/fantasy movie. - 02/12/2009 12:54:08 AM 1097 Views
i was gonna point that out. thnks. *NM* - 02/12/2009 01:13:47 AM 448 Views
Reading only speculative literature is limiting and monotonous. - 02/12/2009 02:09:42 AM 1134 Views
I was going to say exactly that about "real" literature: monotonous and limiting. - 02/12/2009 01:57:49 PM 1029 Views
I think his point was that only SF/F wasn't good food. - 02/12/2009 02:15:29 PM 1004 Views
I would not disagree with you if you said that. - 02/12/2009 02:27:08 PM 949 Views
Most non-speculative fiction is fluff as well though. - 03/12/2009 05:38:32 PM 951 Views
hear hear!! I agree totally wert-man - 03/12/2009 07:20:09 PM 1028 Views
Which brings us back to my point. - 03/12/2009 08:04:24 PM 1085 Views
Actually, it is a film that does not fit neatly into one category - 02/12/2009 11:16:20 AM 1077 Views
Science Fiction is the most PERTINANT form of fiction in the world today - 02/12/2009 12:57:19 AM 1012 Views
don't get me wrong - 02/12/2009 01:28:08 AM 1053 Views
SF&F and 'real literature' are not mutually exclusive - 02/12/2009 01:19:05 AM 1025 Views
No, they are not - 02/12/2009 02:18:53 AM 1035 Views
This line is a load of bull - 03/12/2009 02:39:53 PM 1124 Views
So why don't we occasionally focus on "real" books that are technically spec fiction? - 02/12/2009 01:25:04 AM 1004 Views
Why must we limit our focus in that way? - 02/12/2009 02:20:11 AM 985 Views
I don't see it as limiting or forcing. - 02/12/2009 03:16:07 AM 1016 Views
"Elite club" or "elitist clique"? - 02/12/2009 03:52:11 AM 992 Views
Either way, I want in. *NM* - 02/12/2009 11:33:52 AM 545 Views
Elite club is how we midwestern rednecks refer to Elitist Clique. *chews on a piece of hay* - 02/12/2009 02:52:01 PM 1144 Views
I was born in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 1065 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 03:12:05 PM 991 Views
Green Acres in reverse, eh? - 02/12/2009 03:38:09 PM 1009 Views
lmao - 02/12/2009 06:21:17 PM 1160 Views
*piledrivers you* - 02/12/2009 06:28:02 PM 963 Views
...! - 02/12/2009 03:17:57 PM 1004 Views
Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:29:31 PM 1017 Views
Re: Admit it. You know what I'm talking about. - 02/12/2009 03:31:26 PM 965 Views
Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:39:36 PM 979 Views
Re: Vermont isn't in the Midwest. - 02/12/2009 03:42:47 PM 993 Views
Huh! I really didn't think of you as being a masochist. - 02/12/2009 01:51:55 AM 968 Views
Thank you! - 02/12/2009 02:21:00 AM 904 Views
Shitstorm! - 02/12/2009 03:06:59 AM 959 Views
Heh heh heh. - 02/12/2009 03:45:40 AM 996 Views
Read what you like to read. - 02/12/2009 04:18:53 AM 1076 Views
I'll super size you. Fine. *NM* - 02/12/2009 04:32:58 AM 513 Views
Oh noes! I'm getting word-fat! - 02/12/2009 04:59:05 AM 1006 Views
I seem to have struck a nerve. - 02/12/2009 05:20:27 AM 1046 Views
Apparently not the nerve you think, though. - 02/12/2009 06:42:02 AM 1110 Views
Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 02:13:10 PM 1025 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 03:26:59 PM 1037 Views
Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:30:50 PM 956 Views
Re: Agreed. - 02/12/2009 03:32:06 PM 954 Views
Re: Intellectual achievement isn't a static measure. - 02/12/2009 09:40:28 PM 1078 Views
I really did get under your skin - 02/12/2009 09:58:18 PM 954 Views
- 02/12/2009 10:06:46 PM 944 Views
Tom as much as you raise some great points, you are being a condescending ass. - 03/12/2009 04:26:27 AM 1012 Views
You're entitled to your opinion. I don't care. - 03/12/2009 04:51:18 AM 988 Views
I keep replying. It's like a sickness. - 03/12/2009 05:15:28 AM 1003 Views
Your subject line reinforces my opinion. - 03/12/2009 05:31:50 AM 920 Views
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. *NM* - 03/12/2009 07:21:05 AM 489 Views
LOL! - 04/12/2009 12:21:36 AM 960 Views
See, you just proved my point. - 04/12/2009 12:39:59 AM 997 Views
Hm. - 02/12/2009 06:58:56 AM 1589 Views
Re-read my exact point. - 02/12/2009 02:18:20 PM 966 Views
No. Some kind of reading is indeed essential. - 02/12/2009 02:28:22 PM 1107 Views
Somehow I get the feeling that this post hasn't caused quite as much controversy - 02/12/2009 06:53:18 AM 1105 Views
As I see it... - 02/12/2009 11:38:07 AM 999 Views
Yep. - 02/12/2009 02:18:22 PM 1139 Views
Re: Yep. - 02/12/2009 03:35:38 PM 1020 Views
Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 03:57:58 PM 913 Views
Re: Euripides was poorly received, initially. - 02/12/2009 04:00:35 PM 951 Views
I know. - 02/12/2009 04:18:16 PM 1022 Views
Re: I know. - 02/12/2009 04:23:14 PM 959 Views
That is why he's so good, in my opinion. - 02/12/2009 06:15:45 PM 1108 Views
All reading of fiction is a diversion by the very nature of the activity. - 02/12/2009 03:43:05 PM 1020 Views
Diversion from direct action, yes. Diversion from reality, no. - 02/12/2009 04:15:48 PM 971 Views
I maintain that all acts of reading fiction are a diversion from reality/ the realistic - 02/12/2009 05:43:16 PM 991 Views
It seems a regressive argument to me. - 03/12/2009 01:18:02 AM 949 Views
You're playing a game. - 03/12/2009 03:40:14 PM 1023 Views
I like your response. *NM* - 03/12/2009 05:37:09 PM 458 Views
I fundamentally agree with much of what you're saying, but there is a distinction. - 03/12/2009 06:44:02 PM 1012 Views
Oh I concur on that distinction. - 04/12/2009 09:06:34 PM 1054 Views
Spec fic is perhaps at it's best in autocracies? - 02/12/2009 04:10:56 PM 945 Views
Bulgakov - 02/12/2009 04:25:17 PM 990 Views
I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:36:09 PM 962 Views
Re: I've only read the first chapter of M&M. - 02/12/2009 04:40:16 PM 916 Views
Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:17:31 PM 954 Views
Re: Not the greatest Tolkien scholar, me. - 02/12/2009 05:40:16 PM 987 Views
I suppose. - 02/12/2009 06:26:30 PM 1006 Views
Re: I suppose. - 02/12/2009 07:25:26 PM 1013 Views
Well, I don't hold escapism in such low esteem *NM* - 02/12/2009 07:56:13 PM 499 Views
That is what I mean - 02/12/2009 08:36:02 PM 937 Views
This was something I was exploring earlier. - 02/12/2009 04:34:41 PM 1043 Views
Funny thing about the hivemind antagonist. - 02/12/2009 05:13:30 PM 1005 Views
I didn't see the zombies reading speculative fiction - 02/12/2009 05:30:26 PM 1089 Views
Oh, they prefer Clive Cussler. - 02/12/2009 06:23:42 PM 1052 Views
i think it comes more down to quality than genre. - 02/12/2009 04:55:20 PM 1020 Views
I disagree with the ultimate conclusion but agree with many of your points. - 02/12/2009 05:43:04 PM 997 Views
the illiad is a classic - 02/12/2009 06:35:24 PM 1018 Views
There's only one "L" in Iliad - 02/12/2009 08:18:38 PM 988 Views
Is there a safe answer to that question? *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:33:21 PM 529 Views
Maybe not. *NM* - 03/12/2009 12:59:09 AM 492 Views
It took me a few minutes to agree - 02/12/2009 07:04:59 PM 971 Views
Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:13:26 PM 979 Views
Re: Well, I'm glad if you got something out of the post! - 02/12/2009 09:20:49 PM 968 Views
I don't know. I've only read about 30 pages so far. *NM* - 02/12/2009 10:05:54 PM 523 Views
Many people have mentioned that there's quite a bit of good sff lit out there and you seem to agree. - 02/12/2009 07:33:42 PM 1099 Views
Hmmm - 02/12/2009 08:40:53 PM 986 Views
Re: Hmmm - 02/12/2009 10:48:02 PM 1012 Views
The website is called "Read and Find Out". It doesn't specify what we're supposed to read. - 02/12/2009 08:42:19 PM 1066 Views
Anti the idea ? I see no evidence for this. - 02/12/2009 09:50:37 PM 1015 Views
Heh - 02/12/2009 09:56:30 PM 1024 Views
What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:01:08 AM 994 Views
Re: What do you mean ? Almost all the repliers agree with Tom - 03/12/2009 11:10:35 AM 1010 Views
I see. You don't read announcements. - 03/12/2009 11:12:04 AM 976 Views
No, but it does bill itself as science fiction/fantasy. - 02/12/2009 10:51:41 PM 1106 Views
Yes. - 03/12/2009 12:01:30 AM 1089 Views
I think Rebekah and Camilla put it well. - 02/12/2009 10:05:24 PM 1076 Views
I think they make good points, as I said above. - 02/12/2009 10:56:55 PM 956 Views
I agree with in principle - 02/12/2009 11:22:19 PM 951 Views
Certainly. People are free to skip any discussion. - 03/12/2009 01:01:40 AM 1071 Views
I have a few objections. - 03/12/2009 12:24:43 AM 1034 Views
where else should we talk about it? - 03/12/2009 12:37:26 AM 997 Views
random thoughts stole my subject line - 03/12/2009 01:56:07 AM 1034 Views
I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:12:01 AM 1039 Views
Re: I think I could agree with a "comfort food" analogy - 03/12/2009 02:38:17 AM 1096 Views
That's it - 03/12/2009 04:02:28 AM 1094 Views
Question: is it really science fiction without one of the following: - 03/12/2009 05:13:21 AM 1034 Views
Certainly - 03/12/2009 06:13:38 AM 1073 Views
technically speaking, fantasy is classed as a sub heading under science fiction. *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:51:12 PM 424 Views
According to whom? *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:55:45 PM 548 Views
Yeah. What she asked! *NM* - 03/12/2009 09:23:55 PM 513 Views
Yes, it is but actually... - 03/12/2009 09:31:44 PM 1029 Views
Eternal Sunshine doesn't have a mad scientist. - 03/12/2009 10:09:01 PM 943 Views
Really? - 04/12/2009 07:01:42 PM 995 Views
But Dan Brown rocks da house!!! *NM* - 03/12/2009 02:16:47 AM 524 Views
*pumps fist* Give it up for Dan Brown! *NM* - 03/12/2009 03:58:23 AM 510 Views
That's Dan "booyah" Brown!!! Booyah!!! *NM* - 04/12/2009 02:00:56 AM 518 Views
another thing wrong with your argument - 03/12/2009 03:30:19 PM 1000 Views
Absolutely not. And, as I said before, there's only one "L" in Iliad. - 03/12/2009 06:53:35 PM 827 Views
sorry about my atrocious spelling (including the one on pertinent) - 03/12/2009 07:14:59 PM 1125 Views
No problem. On the substantive points: - 03/12/2009 08:00:33 PM 1060 Views
more importantly, which I think it being lost in all this, - 03/12/2009 08:05:27 PM 1065 Views
I'm not reading the Iliad again, once was enough - 04/12/2009 12:19:07 PM 983 Views
Congratulations on the replies count - 03/12/2009 09:30:41 PM 1119 Views
That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 03/12/2009 10:50:29 PM 1067 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 07:44:56 PM 1032 Views
But the objective truth of a setting can be measured. - 04/12/2009 10:37:10 PM 983 Views
But does it make any difference in the objective value of the book? - 06/12/2009 09:35:59 AM 1135 Views
YES. - 06/12/2009 03:34:17 PM 946 Views
NO - 07/12/2009 08:40:33 PM 1026 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 04/12/2009 10:25:08 PM 985 Views
Yes, it is worse with movies. Much worse, in fact. - 04/12/2009 10:33:18 PM 1043 Views
Re: That was a well-thought out response, but I still disagree. - 06/12/2009 09:36:11 AM 989 Views
Maybe we're different, but I don't care for FX - 06/12/2009 01:37:53 PM 927 Views
This is not about the personal taste - 07/12/2009 08:50:34 PM 1036 Views
I've obviously missed the show here... - 04/12/2009 12:14:30 AM 952 Views
I'm not sure that's right. This thing just keeps growing. - 04/12/2009 12:46:24 AM 1079 Views
What, your penis? - 06/12/2009 02:40:09 AM 961 Views
Don't you know it! - 06/12/2009 03:28:16 PM 854 Views
You talk the talk, that's for sure. - 07/12/2009 08:14:41 PM 1013 Views
Hate to break it to you... - 07/12/2009 09:54:24 PM 1055 Views
I thought you were gonna tell me... - 08/12/2009 03:07:54 PM 1122 Views
Metaphor versus literalism - 04/12/2009 05:42:03 PM 1032 Views
aha. but. - 07/12/2009 03:56:48 PM 1160 Views
Quoting Nietzsche is really hitting below the belt. - 07/12/2009 09:12:34 PM 1099 Views
It is good I was only paraphrasing, then - 08/12/2009 10:44:14 AM 993 Views

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