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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
Except that half of Hawkwing's greatness had to do with his supernatural power that bent reality to his will. Even if this is excusable, after his first wife died he became a tyrant and it was only through the intervention of his second wife that the world survived his wrath. Secondly, he became a puppet for one of the Forsaken, and died a madman.


His tyranny is only called such because it was out of character for HIM. By anyone else's standards it was business as usual, and the only evidence that he is the puppet of a Forsaken is the vainglorious boasting of nihilistic villain afflicted with three thousand years of exposure to the True Power, drawn from the same evil as the taint that drives saidin weilders mad. Ba'alzamon's bragging is not a remotely credible source. All things being equal, it is just as likely that HE was the one being bent to the other's will.

As for the issue of ta'veren, it is no different than the special protections other kings get with the divine right and so on. Given that all known ta'veren have been extraordinarily talented individuals it is as likely that his personal qualities resulted in his being picked out for greatness as the candidate who could best serve whatever purpose the Pattern had in mind (IMO, uniting humanity to forestall the Trolloc Wars 2), as that his achievements are based solely on some superpowered boost.

Actually, the ta'veren factor works even more to his credit, because the expansionist conqueror seldom makes for a good ruler. As we know from the books however, a ta'veren is driven along his course and must achieve what the Pattern wants him to or die. Hawkwing, according to his biography, was a good ruler who was content to stay at home and tend his nation, but was driven to conquest by necessity, implicitly by the mandate of the Pattern, and explicitly by the hostility of the White Tower.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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The greatest King in Fantasy - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 2086 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1485 Views
I would argue with you. - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1436 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1454 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1449 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1497 Views
when I read the actual book... - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1483 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1521 Views
My money is still on Aragorn - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1583 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1432 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1395 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1463 Views
Hm - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1506 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1399 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1664 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1524 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1405 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1530 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1434 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1508 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1559 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1569 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1693 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1470 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1445 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1454 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1577 Views
I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1394 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1422 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1504 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1510 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1384 Views
Exactly. - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1500 Views
Re: Exactly. - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1570 Views
I was going to say something similar. - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1436 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1400 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1422 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1726 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1472 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1326 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1419 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1588 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1409 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1384 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1419 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 714 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1483 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 685 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1427 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 691 Views
ROFL *NM* - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 655 Views
Artur Hawkwing - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1589 Views
??? - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 2005 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1419 Views
Simba *NM* - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 746 Views
Manwe - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1891 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 814 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1493 Views
Westley - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1444 Views
Leto Atreides II - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1374 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 684 Views

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