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Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people Cannoli Send a noteboard - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM
Except that half of Hawkwing's greatness had to do with his supernatural power that bent reality to his will. Even if this is excusable, after his first wife died he became a tyrant and it was only through the intervention of his second wife that the world survived his wrath. Secondly, he became a puppet for one of the Forsaken, and died a madman.


His tyranny is only called such because it was out of character for HIM. By anyone else's standards it was business as usual, and the only evidence that he is the puppet of a Forsaken is the vainglorious boasting of nihilistic villain afflicted with three thousand years of exposure to the True Power, drawn from the same evil as the taint that drives saidin weilders mad. Ba'alzamon's bragging is not a remotely credible source. All things being equal, it is just as likely that HE was the one being bent to the other's will.

As for the issue of ta'veren, it is no different than the special protections other kings get with the divine right and so on. Given that all known ta'veren have been extraordinarily talented individuals it is as likely that his personal qualities resulted in his being picked out for greatness as the candidate who could best serve whatever purpose the Pattern had in mind (IMO, uniting humanity to forestall the Trolloc Wars 2), as that his achievements are based solely on some superpowered boost.

Actually, the ta'veren factor works even more to his credit, because the expansionist conqueror seldom makes for a good ruler. As we know from the books however, a ta'veren is driven along his course and must achieve what the Pattern wants him to or die. Hawkwing, according to his biography, was a good ruler who was content to stay at home and tend his nation, but was driven to conquest by necessity, implicitly by the mandate of the Pattern, and explicitly by the hostility of the White Tower.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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The greatest King in Fantasy - 09/04/2010 05:18:42 AM 2120 Views
King Arthur. Hands down. - 09/04/2010 06:40:15 AM 1520 Views
I would argue with you. - 09/04/2010 06:54:53 AM 1461 Views
That's the point, though. Arthur's humanity is what makes him so admirable. - 09/04/2010 06:59:07 AM 1490 Views
I have to agree with Dannymac - 09/04/2010 02:04:44 PM 1480 Views
But he's not in a modern fantasy novel. - 09/04/2010 07:37:14 PM 1522 Views
when I read the actual book... - 10/04/2010 12:08:21 AM 1510 Views
I'm going with the most likely historical version of King Arthur - 09/04/2010 06:45:26 PM 1565 Views
My money is still on Aragorn - 09/04/2010 12:47:43 PM 1612 Views
Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 02:05:42 PM 1459 Views
Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:18:30 PM 1428 Views
Re: Arwen's character is just never fleshed out, though. - 09/04/2010 02:49:45 PM 1498 Views
Hm - 09/04/2010 03:23:53 PM 1546 Views
Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:32:00 PM 1425 Views
Re: Mostly, yes, but there are a few exceptions - Galadriel, Eowyn, and above all Luthien. - 09/04/2010 03:45:37 PM 1698 Views
I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:34:15 PM 1553 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 04:55:34 PM 1437 Views
If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:09:20 PM 1566 Views
Re: If Tacitus and Graves were accurate - 09/04/2010 05:26:43 PM 1462 Views
I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:34:37 PM 1533 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 09/04/2010 05:45:06 PM 1589 Views
Re: I rather liked her depiction in Rome. - 10/04/2010 11:14:26 AM 1595 Views
I don't know if I'd call it bad, per se. - 10/04/2010 11:37:55 AM 1729 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:02:50 PM 1496 Views
Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:31:42 PM 1482 Views
Re: Eh, the other Vala don't do much of anything either. - 09/04/2010 05:44:03 PM 1486 Views
Re: I can't agree about the goddesses. - 09/04/2010 05:06:49 PM 1619 Views
I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:09:49 PM 1428 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 09/04/2010 08:31:16 PM 1442 Views
Re: I call bullshit - 10/04/2010 08:04:15 AM 1534 Views
I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 10/04/2010 05:12:07 PM 1541 Views
Re: I didn't realize it was fashionable to call Tolkien sexist. - 12/04/2010 11:00:23 AM 1416 Views
Exactly. - 13/04/2010 03:08:46 AM 1534 Views
Re: Exactly. - 13/04/2010 08:54:01 AM 1607 Views
I was going to say something similar. - 09/04/2010 03:21:45 PM 1460 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:00:25 PM 1434 Views
Re: Aragorn is so awesome... - 09/04/2010 08:37:12 PM 1448 Views
He's good, but then he just doesn't have to face so many things. - 09/04/2010 02:22:04 PM 1753 Views
Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 07:59:27 PM 1508 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 09/04/2010 08:38:51 PM 1358 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 08:24:33 AM 1471 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 10/04/2010 05:08:42 PM 1616 Views
Re: Doesn't have to face many things? - 12/04/2010 10:55:12 AM 1445 Views
He really wasn't a king in majority of the story though - 12/04/2010 05:54:23 PM 1422 Views
I'm sure there are many, but one coming to mind is Prince Josua from Memory, Sorrow and Thorn - 09/04/2010 02:23:57 PM 1453 Views
Oh yeah I liked him a lot *NM* - 09/04/2010 04:09:59 PM 737 Views
Josua Lackhand is a great fantasy King! - 09/04/2010 05:14:39 PM 1514 Views
Arutha was never King. *NM* - 09/04/2010 07:18:30 PM 701 Views
I'm going to go with a tie... - 09/04/2010 04:22:42 PM 1452 Views
Joffrey and the Stag! *NM* - 09/04/2010 09:53:56 PM 709 Views
ROFL *NM* - 09/04/2010 11:39:36 PM 668 Views
Artur Hawkwing - 10/04/2010 03:34:02 AM 1617 Views
??? - 10/04/2010 10:30:13 AM 2039 Views
Ta'veren is not a power, it is an accomodation with what the Pattern demands of certain people - 12/04/2010 02:56:57 PM 1460 Views
Simba *NM* - 10/04/2010 08:40:38 AM 765 Views
Manwe - 10/04/2010 10:31:54 AM 1927 Views
Bah. He's hardly a character. *NM* - 12/04/2010 01:07:29 AM 828 Views
Arutha, the Prince of Krondor - 12/04/2010 01:06:14 AM 1524 Views
Westley - 13/04/2010 02:59:36 AM 1477 Views
Leto Atreides II - 13/04/2010 05:07:29 AM 1397 Views
I'll agree with that! *NM* - 13/04/2010 11:33:10 AM 697 Views

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