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Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM
I wonder. I assume older Norwegian would have had the distinction. Is "hvem" related to "whom"? I mean, it is "kem" or "kven" or similar in a lot of dialects, but whom and hvem sound much too close to be accidental. And I cannot think of any alternative word that survives in current Norwegian (including dialects). But we did have cases, so we must have done something.


Yes, pretty much. See this link to the declension of the Icelandic word for "what".

My favourite piece of information on this subject is that "why" was the dative of "what" in Old English, so it literally means "what for?" (cf Nynorsk "kvifor").


Now, that is cool information. And makes perfect sense to me.

I also found "Hvaða" interesting. We will often say "hva da?", but only standing alone. I don't know if that is new or old.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 988 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 195 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 178 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 160 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 167 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 207 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 103 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 202 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 294 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 196 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 151 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 211 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 203 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 200 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 205 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 169 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 83 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 211 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 187 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 186 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 319 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 194 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 151 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 373 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 392 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 153 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 156 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 188 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 198 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 171 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 348 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 162 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 159 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 146 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 359 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 192 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 139 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 277 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 200 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 268 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 188 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 408 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 172 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 374 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 346 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 359 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 185 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 173 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 189 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 229 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 359 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 158 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 178 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 139 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 212 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 361 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 398 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 274 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 338 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 141 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 72 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 145 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 146 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 144 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 334 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 76 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 197 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 140 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 345 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 254 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 144 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 264 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 76 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 124 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 135 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 136 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 146 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 137 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 144 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 145 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 343 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 337 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 263 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 258 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 146 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 343 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 125 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 145 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 130 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 129 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 74 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9292 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 67 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 327 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 154 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 330 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 271 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 266 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 276 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 138 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 172 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 141 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 339 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 145 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 142 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 69 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 340 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 277 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 136 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 134 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 169 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 68 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 145 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 396 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 128 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 218 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 161 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 176 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 262 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 274 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 135 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 337 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 399 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 295 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 335 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 249 Views
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