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Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM
I wonder. I assume older Norwegian would have had the distinction. Is "hvem" related to "whom"? I mean, it is "kem" or "kven" or similar in a lot of dialects, but whom and hvem sound much too close to be accidental. And I cannot think of any alternative word that survives in current Norwegian (including dialects). But we did have cases, so we must have done something.


Yes, pretty much. See this link to the declension of the Icelandic word for "what".

My favourite piece of information on this subject is that "why" was the dative of "what" in Old English, so it literally means "what for?" (cf Nynorsk "kvifor").


Now, that is cool information. And makes perfect sense to me.

I also found "Hvaða" interesting. We will often say "hva da?", but only standing alone. I don't know if that is new or old.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1113 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 306 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 279 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 276 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 297 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 321 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 155 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 256 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 402 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 257 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 254 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 265 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 251 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 309 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 257 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 291 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 134 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 308 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 239 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 294 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 435 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 254 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 254 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 492 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 503 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 247 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 272 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 242 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 246 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 295 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 478 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 269 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 279 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 238 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 479 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 238 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 243 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 399 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 314 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 371 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 302 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 511 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 305 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 498 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 465 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 471 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 288 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 293 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 241 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 279 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 465 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 268 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 284 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 231 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 267 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 473 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 534 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 381 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 460 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 254 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 118 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 263 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 252 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 238 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 433 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 123 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 254 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 265 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 468 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 360 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 280 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 373 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 128 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 248 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 245 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 252 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 256 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 243 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 247 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 261 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 444 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 447 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 370 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 363 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 258 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 450 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 231 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 257 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 234 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 238 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 123 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9400 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 114 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 434 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 273 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 468 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 366 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 367 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 484 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 241 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 277 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 243 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 453 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 255 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 263 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 118 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 455 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 387 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 260 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 246 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 297 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 114 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 257 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 546 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 259 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 279 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 278 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 225 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 377 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 386 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 249 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 452 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 513 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 412 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 437 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 378 Views
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