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Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM
I wonder. I assume older Norwegian would have had the distinction. Is "hvem" related to "whom"? I mean, it is "kem" or "kven" or similar in a lot of dialects, but whom and hvem sound much too close to be accidental. And I cannot think of any alternative word that survives in current Norwegian (including dialects). But we did have cases, so we must have done something.


Yes, pretty much. See this link to the declension of the Icelandic word for "what".

My favourite piece of information on this subject is that "why" was the dative of "what" in Old English, so it literally means "what for?" (cf Nynorsk "kvifor").


Now, that is cool information. And makes perfect sense to me.

I also found "Hvaða" interesting. We will often say "hva da?", but only standing alone. I don't know if that is new or old.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1129 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 320 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 295 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 289 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 312 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 337 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 161 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 263 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 419 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 267 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 269 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 271 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 256 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 324 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 261 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 307 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 140 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 323 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 245 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 311 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 450 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 261 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 271 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 509 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 518 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 260 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 285 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 246 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 252 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 311 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 494 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 284 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 295 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 255 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 493 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 247 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 258 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 412 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 326 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 386 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 314 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 525 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 321 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 511 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 477 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 486 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 303 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 305 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 247 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 286 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 481 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 280 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 302 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 248 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 272 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 492 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 564 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 398 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 477 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 266 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 124 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 278 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 267 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 257 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 449 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 129 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 260 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 281 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 481 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 377 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 292 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 388 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 132 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 261 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 259 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 267 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 272 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 258 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 263 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 276 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 461 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 462 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 388 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 378 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 272 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 463 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 245 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 272 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 248 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 259 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 127 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9412 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 119 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 451 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 289 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 482 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 381 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 381 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 514 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 254 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 294 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 252 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 466 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 272 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 277 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 123 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 470 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 403 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 274 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 261 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 312 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 119 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 270 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 562 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 287 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 286 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 292 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 231 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 389 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 400 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 263 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 467 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 529 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 426 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 451 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 394 Views
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