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Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM
I wonder. I assume older Norwegian would have had the distinction. Is "hvem" related to "whom"? I mean, it is "kem" or "kven" or similar in a lot of dialects, but whom and hvem sound much too close to be accidental. And I cannot think of any alternative word that survives in current Norwegian (including dialects). But we did have cases, so we must have done something.


Yes, pretty much. See this link to the declension of the Icelandic word for "what".

My favourite piece of information on this subject is that "why" was the dative of "what" in Old English, so it literally means "what for?" (cf Nynorsk "kvifor").


Now, that is cool information. And makes perfect sense to me.

I also found "Hvaða" interesting. We will often say "hva da?", but only standing alone. I don't know if that is new or old.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already Tom - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1011 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing snoopcester - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 223 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. Tom - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 199 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here snoopcester - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 180 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 195 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 234 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* Tom - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 116 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 214 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens LadyLorraine - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 314 Views
THEY ARE VICIOUS CREATURES FROM THE DEEP. CUTTLEFISH HAVE W SHAPED PUPILS. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:00:41 AM 209 Views
Actually nothing like that Sareitha Sedai - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 174 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 224 Views
As a Classicist I'm afraid I can't get past the misguided origins. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 10:08:34 PM 213 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 224 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 215 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. Tigr - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 191 Views
*NM* Avendesora - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 97 Views
you know, considering my state was THE lowest in the country for education... LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 05:04:42 PM 229 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* Monkey - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 200 Views
*cough* move along... ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 215 Views
That annoys me, too Camilla - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 341 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* Tim - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 207 Views
No Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 172 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 397 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 414 Views
Er, no... Tim - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 173 Views
Re: Er, no... Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 178 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 200 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 211 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 204 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 374 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? Tim - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 185 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? Camilla - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 182 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 164 Views
Sorted Camilla - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 391 Views
Coffee time is going to be appropriated by grammar discussion? Shall I bring a book? *NM* Rebekah - 21/05/2010 10:12:48 AM 204 Views
Not entirely. We just need to get a hold of Pratchett's Unseen Academicals on the way. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:25:57 AM 159 Views
This whole thread is just an elaborate effort to provoke my complaints about terminal prepositions. Joel - 21/05/2010 02:58:05 PM 307 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 226 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already ßelals Girl - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 294 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 212 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. jh - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 430 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. Beqi - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 193 Views
It's the same as "I" vs. "me". "Who" can only be a subject. "Whom" is correct everywhere else. Tom - 20/05/2010 07:47:21 PM 398 Views
That's where I get into trouble. Joel - 21/05/2010 03:01:18 PM 377 Views
Along these lines Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 378 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. LiterateDog - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 209 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 201 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* LadyLorraine - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 201 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 239 Views
Not limited to the US of A. Rebekah - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 379 Views
It's properly the "US and A" - if Borat taught me nothing else, it's that. Tom - 20/05/2010 08:46:18 PM 179 Views
If you're going to start down that path... Legolas - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 199 Views
Personally Sareitha Sedai - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 158 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* Tim - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 223 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... Legolas - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 383 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 427 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 291 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 364 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 172 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 83 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. Tim - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 166 Views
<chant> Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 173 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 165 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 351 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 87 Views
Example please? *NM* Tim - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 213 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 166 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. Tim - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 374 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 22/05/2010 11:40:05 PM 281 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Tim - 23/05/2010 10:30:59 AM 175 Views
Re: No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. Camilla - 23/05/2010 10:36:25 AM 285 Views
Why = what for? That's amazing! *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:22:35 PM 87 Views
Cf pretty much every other European language, no? Legolas - 23/05/2010 09:32:33 PM 153 Views
Yes, but when you're a native speaker of English it comes as something of a surprise. Tim - 23/05/2010 11:18:45 PM 162 Views
The thing is that you really have to know Old English to figure it out. Ghavrel - 24/05/2010 03:22:10 AM 164 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object Larry - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 171 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. Legolas - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 163 Views
I know it's odd, but in terse responses, it seems to be a direct object rather than nominative Larry - 21/05/2010 01:46:10 AM 163 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 167 Views
Well... Larry - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 362 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 357 Views
I know that Larry - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 283 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. Camilla - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 282 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 171 Views
I know it's dative in Latin Larry - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 364 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 152 Views
And you would be wrong in that. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 169 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 153 Views
You still just aren't getting this. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 152 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 86 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. Tom - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9313 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 78 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 353 Views
True. But English uses the reflexive in that scenario, not the personal pronoun. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:05:30 PM 187 Views
That was atrocious Latin. Tom - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 357 Views
I was very drunk, and it wasn't that bad even had I been sober. Ghavrel - 22/05/2010 10:04:12 PM 290 Views
Parare means, first and foremost, to prepare, supply or make something available. Tom - 23/05/2010 12:50:22 AM 295 Views
It also means to buy, and it frequently has that meaning when it's with the dative. No dice. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:31:01 AM 304 Views
Now you're pulling things out of your ass (about parare, at least) Tom - 23/05/2010 02:32:58 AM 158 Views
I unfortunately don't have the OLD, and no, I'm not. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:41:22 AM 193 Views
So I looked up the word in Lewis & Short. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 02:49:19 AM 167 Views
Interestingly enough, the Oxford Latin Dictionary doesn't have one use of the dative for "to buy". Tom - 23/05/2010 02:51:54 PM 364 Views
Hm. I guess I have to concede defeat in this, then. Ghavrel - 23/05/2010 09:21:29 PM 170 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 174 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 81 Views
C'est moi. Tom - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 365 Views
One additional thought. everynametaken - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 303 Views
Let me clarify. Legolas - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 165 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. everynametaken - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 162 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... damookster - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 200 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* Ghavrel - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 79 Views
You clearly had an unusually good teacher. That's exactly what should be taught. Tim - 21/05/2010 12:00:58 PM 175 Views
That is what I was taught... Dominic - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 438 Views
Same. TaskmasterJack - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 153 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* Gena - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 237 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! Monkey - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 187 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* Tom - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 189 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar Larry - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 288 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. Tom - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 303 Views
True Larry - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 155 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. Tom - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 366 Views
I guess I did Larry - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 424 Views
Those all sound boring. Tom - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 327 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point Larry - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 363 Views
Avendesora - 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 278 Views
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