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Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM
Sorry I've taken so long to reply – been busy celebrating the end of exams.

If you then take the strong anti-prescriptivism stance that most linguists will take, and don't allow something to be called wrong based on grammar rules if it's sufficiently widespread, that leaves little room to support Tom's original point - the only argument left then is arguing that "between you and I" is not (yet) sufficiently widespread. Or you could disagree as much with Tom's post as with mine, as I said I shouldn't make assumptions about that.


The reason I dislike "between you and I" isn't because of the "rules of grammar" per se, but because of the way it came to be so widely used. If a rule such as "personal pronouns are always nominative after the word 'and'" had developed naturally, I'd have no problem with it. But what actually happened was that incompetent, prescriptivist schoolteachers threw a spanner in the works with their misguided crusade against French-style emphatic pronouns, utterly failed to teach their pupils what the underlying issue actually was, and thereby produced a generation of confused speakers who are continually unsure as to whether or not their linguistic instincts correlate with prescriptive correctness. "Between you and I" is a Frankenstein's monster creating by prescriptivists.

I realise that this may seem an artifical distinction given the linguist's axiom that a language is nothing more nor less than what its speakers habitually say, and maybe I am being a bit irrational on that point. But I would point out that there's now no clear consensus between speakers as to when it's appropriate to say "you and me" and when to say "you and I". Prescriptivists saw one clear rule (case-based) being replaced by another clear rule (emphatic pronouns), started a crusade to try and stop it, and we ended up with chaos. So whenever I hear "between you and I", I'm reminded of this stupid meddling and get annoyed, even though it's not the speaker's fault at all.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1068 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 276 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 251 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 236 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 269 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 294 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 142 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 243 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 370 Views
Actually nothing like that - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 226 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 251 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 279 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 244 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 257 Views
*NM* - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 122 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 226 Views
*cough* move along... - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 269 Views
That annoys me, too - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 405 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 243 Views
No - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 227 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 459 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 467 Views
Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 224 Views
Re: Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 243 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 226 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 234 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 264 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 447 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 241 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 249 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 208 Views
Sorted - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 448 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 283 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 345 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 278 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 484 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 273 Views
Along these lines - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 434 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 258 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 265 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 229 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 265 Views
Not limited to the US of A. - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 434 Views
If you're going to start down that path... - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 256 Views
Personally - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 210 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 250 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 445 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 481 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 344 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 420 Views
Fair enough. - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 220 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 104 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 225 Views
<chant> - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 225 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 213 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 404 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 109 Views
Example please? *NM* - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 240 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 227 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 433 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 223 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 209 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 232 Views
Well... - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 408 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 413 Views
I know that - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 340 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 330 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 233 Views
I know it's dative in Latin - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 420 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 206 Views
And you would be wrong in that. - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 224 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 201 Views
You still just aren't getting this. - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 212 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 107 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9367 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 101 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 406 Views
That was atrocious Latin. - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 439 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 232 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 105 Views
C'est moi. - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 419 Views
One additional thought. - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 358 Views
Let me clarify. - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 215 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 205 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 264 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 101 Views
That is what I was taught... - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 508 Views
Same. - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 207 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 265 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 247 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 213 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 350 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 353 Views
True - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 215 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 424 Views
I guess I did - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 480 Views
Those all sound boring. - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 384 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 409 Views
- 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 351 Views

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