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Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM
Sorry I've taken so long to reply – been busy celebrating the end of exams.

If you then take the strong anti-prescriptivism stance that most linguists will take, and don't allow something to be called wrong based on grammar rules if it's sufficiently widespread, that leaves little room to support Tom's original point - the only argument left then is arguing that "between you and I" is not (yet) sufficiently widespread. Or you could disagree as much with Tom's post as with mine, as I said I shouldn't make assumptions about that.


The reason I dislike "between you and I" isn't because of the "rules of grammar" per se, but because of the way it came to be so widely used. If a rule such as "personal pronouns are always nominative after the word 'and'" had developed naturally, I'd have no problem with it. But what actually happened was that incompetent, prescriptivist schoolteachers threw a spanner in the works with their misguided crusade against French-style emphatic pronouns, utterly failed to teach their pupils what the underlying issue actually was, and thereby produced a generation of confused speakers who are continually unsure as to whether or not their linguistic instincts correlate with prescriptive correctness. "Between you and I" is a Frankenstein's monster creating by prescriptivists.

I realise that this may seem an artifical distinction given the linguist's axiom that a language is nothing more nor less than what its speakers habitually say, and maybe I am being a bit irrational on that point. But I would point out that there's now no clear consensus between speakers as to when it's appropriate to say "you and me" and when to say "you and I". Prescriptivists saw one clear rule (case-based) being replaced by another clear rule (emphatic pronouns), started a crusade to try and stop it, and we ended up with chaos. So whenever I hear "between you and I", I'm reminded of this stupid meddling and get annoyed, even though it's not the speaker's fault at all.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1113 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 306 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 279 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 276 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 297 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 321 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 155 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 256 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 401 Views
Actually nothing like that - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 254 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 265 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 309 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 257 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 291 Views
*NM* - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 134 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 239 Views
*cough* move along... - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 294 Views
That annoys me, too - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 434 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 254 Views
No - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 254 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 492 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 502 Views
Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 247 Views
Re: Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 272 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 242 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 246 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 294 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 478 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 269 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 279 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 238 Views
Sorted - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 478 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 314 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 371 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 302 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 510 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 304 Views
Along these lines - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 471 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 288 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 293 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 241 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 279 Views
Not limited to the US of A. - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 464 Views
If you're going to start down that path... - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 283 Views
Personally - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 231 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 267 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 473 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 534 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 381 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 460 Views
Fair enough. - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 253 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 118 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 263 Views
<chant> - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 252 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 238 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 433 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 123 Views
Example please? *NM* - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 254 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 265 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 468 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 256 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 243 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 261 Views
Well... - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 444 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 446 Views
I know that - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 370 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 363 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 258 Views
I know it's dative in Latin - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 450 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 231 Views
And you would be wrong in that. - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 257 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 234 Views
You still just aren't getting this. - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 238 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 123 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9399 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 114 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 434 Views
That was atrocious Latin. - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 468 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 262 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 118 Views
C'est moi. - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 455 Views
One additional thought. - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 387 Views
Let me clarify. - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 260 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 246 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 297 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 114 Views
That is what I was taught... - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 546 Views
Same. - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 259 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 279 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 278 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 225 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 376 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 386 Views
True - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 248 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 451 Views
I guess I did - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 513 Views
Those all sound boring. - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 411 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 437 Views
- 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 378 Views

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