Active Users:1060 Time:17/09/2026 11:24:53 PM
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM
Sorry I've taken so long to reply – been busy celebrating the end of exams.

If you then take the strong anti-prescriptivism stance that most linguists will take, and don't allow something to be called wrong based on grammar rules if it's sufficiently widespread, that leaves little room to support Tom's original point - the only argument left then is arguing that "between you and I" is not (yet) sufficiently widespread. Or you could disagree as much with Tom's post as with mine, as I said I shouldn't make assumptions about that.


The reason I dislike "between you and I" isn't because of the "rules of grammar" per se, but because of the way it came to be so widely used. If a rule such as "personal pronouns are always nominative after the word 'and'" had developed naturally, I'd have no problem with it. But what actually happened was that incompetent, prescriptivist schoolteachers threw a spanner in the works with their misguided crusade against French-style emphatic pronouns, utterly failed to teach their pupils what the underlying issue actually was, and thereby produced a generation of confused speakers who are continually unsure as to whether or not their linguistic instincts correlate with prescriptive correctness. "Between you and I" is a Frankenstein's monster creating by prescriptivists.

I realise that this may seem an artifical distinction given the linguist's axiom that a language is nothing more nor less than what its speakers habitually say, and maybe I am being a bit irrational on that point. But I would point out that there's now no clear consensus between speakers as to when it's appropriate to say "you and me" and when to say "you and I". Prescriptivists saw one clear rule (case-based) being replaced by another clear rule (emphatic pronouns), started a crusade to try and stop it, and we ended up with chaos. So whenever I hear "between you and I", I'm reminded of this stupid meddling and get annoyed, even though it's not the speaker's fault at all.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
Reply to message
Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1222 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 407 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 394 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 377 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 402 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 431 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 205 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 311 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 512 Views
Actually nothing like that - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 362 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 323 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 406 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 308 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 394 Views
*NM* - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 191 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 290 Views
*cough* move along... - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 393 Views
That annoys me, too - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 541 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 307 Views
No - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 359 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 602 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 601 Views
Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 354 Views
Re: Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 365 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 290 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 293 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 400 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 587 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 368 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 388 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 331 Views
Sorted - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 573 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 424 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 478 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 388 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 614 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 414 Views
Along these lines - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 567 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 386 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 398 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 298 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 330 Views
Not limited to the US of A. - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 571 Views
If you're going to start down that path... - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 394 Views
Personally - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 337 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 315 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 585 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 654 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 495 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 567 Views
Fair enough. - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 351 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 173 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 359 Views
<chant> - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 346 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 348 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 532 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 173 Views
Example please? *NM* - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 306 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 365 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 573 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 357 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 343 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 364 Views
Well... - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 545 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 552 Views
I know that - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 479 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 474 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 360 Views
I know it's dative in Latin - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 551 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 335 Views
And you would be wrong in that. - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 359 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 334 Views
You still just aren't getting this. - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 354 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 175 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9504 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 167 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 545 Views
That was atrocious Latin. - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 572 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 372 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 173 Views
C'est moi. - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 558 Views
One additional thought. - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 496 Views
Let me clarify. - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 361 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 352 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 393 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 168 Views
That is what I was taught... - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 651 Views
Same. - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 384 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 332 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 378 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 279 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 471 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 507 Views
True - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 340 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 557 Views
I guess I did - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 619 Views
Those all sound boring. - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 515 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 535 Views
- 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 477 Views

Reply to Message