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Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... Tim Send a noteboard - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM
Sorry I've taken so long to reply – been busy celebrating the end of exams.

If you then take the strong anti-prescriptivism stance that most linguists will take, and don't allow something to be called wrong based on grammar rules if it's sufficiently widespread, that leaves little room to support Tom's original point - the only argument left then is arguing that "between you and I" is not (yet) sufficiently widespread. Or you could disagree as much with Tom's post as with mine, as I said I shouldn't make assumptions about that.


The reason I dislike "between you and I" isn't because of the "rules of grammar" per se, but because of the way it came to be so widely used. If a rule such as "personal pronouns are always nominative after the word 'and'" had developed naturally, I'd have no problem with it. But what actually happened was that incompetent, prescriptivist schoolteachers threw a spanner in the works with their misguided crusade against French-style emphatic pronouns, utterly failed to teach their pupils what the underlying issue actually was, and thereby produced a generation of confused speakers who are continually unsure as to whether or not their linguistic instincts correlate with prescriptive correctness. "Between you and I" is a Frankenstein's monster creating by prescriptivists.

I realise that this may seem an artifical distinction given the linguist's axiom that a language is nothing more nor less than what its speakers habitually say, and maybe I am being a bit irrational on that point. But I would point out that there's now no clear consensus between speakers as to when it's appropriate to say "you and me" and when to say "you and I". Prescriptivists saw one clear rule (case-based) being replaced by another clear rule (emphatic pronouns), started a crusade to try and stop it, and we ended up with chaos. So whenever I hear "between you and I", I'm reminded of this stupid meddling and get annoyed, even though it's not the speaker's fault at all.
Vigilantibus non dormientibus jura subveniunt.

—Nous disons en allemand : le guerre, le mort, le lune, alors que 'soleil' et 'amour' sont du sexe féminin : la soleil, la amour. La vie est neutre.

—La vie ? Neutre ? C'est très joli, et surtout très logique.
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Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 04:16:29 PM 1128 Views
It isn't something I can recall really noticing - 20/05/2010 04:22:42 PM 318 Views
You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 04:31:23 PM 294 Views
Well yes but me was just feeling smug it doesn't seem as common over here - 20/05/2010 05:12:41 PM 288 Views
Re: You don't live in the United States of America. - 20/05/2010 05:35:34 PM 311 Views
I think this is one of those things people do because they think it makes them sound smart. - 20/05/2010 04:33:38 PM 335 Views
When in actuality it exposese their stupidity and ignorance. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:36:08 PM 161 Views
Like saying "octopi". <Shivers> *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:56:27 PM 263 Views
Octopodes makes them sounds like aliens - 21/05/2010 12:25:14 AM 417 Views
Actually nothing like that - 21/05/2010 04:49:43 PM 267 Views
Yeah, I've never had a problem with that one. *NM* - 21/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 271 Views
I don't know how me feels about this. - 20/05/2010 04:49:03 PM 324 Views
This makes me want cookies. *NM* - 20/05/2010 04:50:34 PM 261 Views
I was thinking about him when I wrote it. - 20/05/2010 04:55:04 PM 304 Views
*NM* - 20/05/2010 05:55:32 PM 140 Views
Dude, I could care less *NM* - 20/05/2010 05:30:37 PM 245 Views
*cough* move along... - 20/05/2010 07:16:18 PM 309 Views
That annoys me, too - 20/05/2010 05:34:30 PM 449 Views
I think you're confusing it with phrase-final prepositions. *NM* - 20/05/2010 11:57:30 PM 261 Views
No - 21/05/2010 12:00:02 AM 270 Views
Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:03:59 AM 508 Views
Re: Oh right, that two (pro)nouns linked by "and" have to be the same case. - 21/05/2010 12:06:51 AM 517 Views
Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:19:31 AM 259 Views
Re: Er, no... - 21/05/2010 12:22:32 AM 285 Views
It doesn't. The reason for that is exactly as Tom says: idiotic teachers. *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:28:12 AM 246 Views
But that is what I said when you contradicted me! *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:38:11 AM 252 Views
OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:44:28 AM 311 Views
Re: OK, I'm officially lost. - 21/05/2010 12:49:59 AM 492 Views
Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:52:08 AM 283 Views
Re: Can you start right from the beginning? - 21/05/2010 12:55:34 AM 294 Views
Please let me know when you sort this out. - 21/05/2010 04:26:50 AM 255 Views
Sorted - 22/05/2010 03:06:53 AM 492 Views
Ah, I think I've found the problem - 21/05/2010 11:50:59 AM 325 Views
Re: Inspired by Camilla's post: quit saying "between you and I" already - 20/05/2010 07:28:16 PM 385 Views
Look at Camilla's post directly below. - 20/05/2010 07:49:03 PM 313 Views
Well, the same problem appears in Swedish to some extent. - 20/05/2010 07:28:32 PM 523 Views
It doesn't annoy me, but I do fine myself silently correcting it when I hear it. - 20/05/2010 07:44:49 PM 320 Views
Along these lines - 20/05/2010 08:52:33 PM 486 Views
Well, shucks, Tom, we just ain't no good at that there grammer stuff. - 20/05/2010 07:49:18 PM 302 Views
And we're all unique little snowflakes. - 20/05/2010 08:20:03 PM 303 Views
hollah that, brutha. *NM* - 20/05/2010 08:41:03 PM 247 Views
You mean grammir. *NM* - 20/05/2010 09:41:55 PM 286 Views
Not limited to the US of A. - 20/05/2010 08:26:30 PM 480 Views
If you're going to start down that path... - 20/05/2010 10:12:24 PM 301 Views
Personally - 20/05/2010 11:30:54 PM 248 Views
<Winces at your use of the word "ungrammatical"> *NM* - 21/05/2010 12:09:29 AM 272 Views
I take it the wincing is at the concept, and not at the word itself... - 21/05/2010 12:32:43 AM 491 Views
It's the misappropriation of linguistic terminology to an improper use. - 21/05/2010 12:44:54 AM 562 Views
I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 21/05/2010 01:12:05 AM 397 Views
Re: I note you haven't replied to the main thread yet... - 23/05/2010 01:36:10 PM 476 Views
Fair enough. - 23/05/2010 01:58:58 PM 266 Views
Well of course that's wrong. It ought to be "The man whom you said that was coming." *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:03:37 AM 124 Views
OK, I know you're kidding around, but I can't tell if you know it isn't even prescriptively correct. - 21/05/2010 10:38:51 AM 276 Views
<chant> - 21/05/2010 11:52:17 AM 266 Views
I can't draw you a syntax tree or what have you to prove that it's wrong, no, but I know it is. - 22/05/2010 02:56:52 AM 255 Views
No trees necessary – this is lecture is 100% ecologically friendly. - 22/05/2010 10:04:34 AM 447 Views
Clever clever. Explains why Greek changes the case in its indirect statements so much. *NM* - 22/05/2010 09:47:26 PM 129 Views
Example please? *NM* - 22/05/2010 10:34:05 PM 260 Views
Yeah, I worded that awkwardly. - 23/05/2010 02:30:49 AM 280 Views
Ah, I see that I misread your subject line. - 23/05/2010 01:17:28 PM 481 Views
Actually, that would be a direct object - 21/05/2010 01:11:42 AM 270 Views
*blinks* Now I'm confused. - 21/05/2010 01:21:51 AM 257 Views
No it isn't...in that case it would be "me", and not "a cookie", that is wanted. - 21/05/2010 04:28:55 AM 275 Views
Well... - 21/05/2010 04:33:27 AM 461 Views
"I want me a cookie" is not proper English. - 21/05/2010 04:38:20 AM 461 Views
I know that - 21/05/2010 05:31:52 AM 386 Views
See, this is an area where your dialect argument would make sense. - 21/05/2010 11:53:17 AM 378 Views
But that doesn't actually make any sense in Latin. - 22/05/2010 03:03:28 AM 271 Views
I know it's dative in Latin - 22/05/2010 03:14:48 AM 462 Views
Well, yes. But prepositions are how we decline our pronouns in English. - 22/05/2010 04:35:42 AM 244 Views
And you would be wrong in that. - 22/05/2010 02:27:16 PM 271 Views
Iċ am not sure what þū said me is relevant these days... - 22/05/2010 09:57:41 PM 247 Views
You still just aren't getting this. - 23/05/2010 12:52:31 AM 257 Views
I accept it. But not in the circumstances when the prepositional phrase "to/for me" is used. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:27:30 AM 127 Views
Technically, most prepositions in English take the dative. - 23/05/2010 02:31:06 AM 9412 Views
Huh. That makes sense. *NM* - 23/05/2010 02:32:57 AM 119 Views
You're confusing me almost as much as Larry. - 22/05/2010 11:15:43 AM 449 Views
That was atrocious Latin. - 22/05/2010 02:20:35 PM 480 Views
When asked who told him that killing was wrong, Johnny Five said "I told me." - 21/05/2010 09:52:15 PM 276 Views
Yes, yes I am. *NM* - 21/05/2010 10:14:16 PM 123 Views
C'est moi. - 21/05/2010 04:34:41 AM 470 Views
One additional thought. - 22/05/2010 02:14:15 AM 400 Views
Let me clarify. - 22/05/2010 11:32:25 AM 273 Views
Please don;t misunderstand what I posted as beng preachy. - 23/05/2010 11:12:43 PM 261 Views
in my elementary school grammar classes... - 21/05/2010 04:44:50 AM 311 Views
I'm unaware of any exceptions. It's a very good rule. *NM* - 21/05/2010 07:04:23 AM 119 Views
That is what I was taught... - 21/05/2010 02:28:40 PM 561 Views
Same. - 21/05/2010 09:54:10 PM 285 Views
I was taught the same. *NM* - 24/05/2010 02:24:41 PM 286 Views
Seriously dudes? 70 posts about fricking grammar?! - 21/05/2010 06:46:58 PM 291 Views
I'm proud of us all. If it were about Akkadian grammar, I'd be even more proud. *NM* - 21/05/2010 06:51:20 PM 231 Views
You could make it about Russian grammar - 21/05/2010 07:05:35 PM 388 Views
I think I would only get slightly more interest than if it were Akkadian grammar. - 21/05/2010 08:13:24 PM 399 Views
True - 21/05/2010 08:45:54 PM 262 Views
Ah, you misunderstood my question. - 21/05/2010 09:10:56 PM 466 Views
I guess I did - 21/05/2010 09:25:53 PM 528 Views
Those all sound boring. - 21/05/2010 10:03:25 PM 425 Views
Not if they are approached from a cultural vantage point - 21/05/2010 10:28:02 PM 450 Views
- 24/05/2010 02:38:54 PM 393 Views

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