No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
Isaac Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
Doesn't reference article 16 of the UDHR, but does articles 1 and 2, which does seem strange. Anyway if we are trying to prove that discrimination based on sexual orientation is against international law I think we just did.
Probably worth mention, the US doesn't appear to have signed that
and for that matter many of the signatories don't allow gay marriage either, there's about 10 countries, starting with the netherlands in 2001 that allow it, and two who allow it in some places, the US is one and Mexico is the other, there's a roughly equal number where it carries the death penalty. and there are 192 nations in the UN, so we're not in much need to worry about violations 
Anyway the issue on 16 is "Men and Women" since everywhere else it says 'Everyone' 'all' or 'No one' and such, but regardless, the clear spirit, not too mention the standard interpretation, are that gay marriage is not banned nor granted by article 16. Of course the UDHR is so much worthless paper anyway. It tends to get pretty specific too, wasn't written on a napkin, article two has a whole laundry list of "such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status" regarding who the rights apply to. There's also the generally futility of amending it anyway, since it is a non-binding measure, and there is, in article 29. a rather nagging "meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society." which is regularly cited by countries who pay the UHDR lip service. To the best of my knowledge our only violation to date is actually article 16, the marriage clause, since some states kept bans on interracial marriage for a while, and argues that the clause didn't say you had to permit interracial marriage, only that you couldn't deny someone of a given race the right to marry. There's also the article 5 torture clause but that's another issue.
The problem is lots of people go around declaring what something means, so courts decide, and I don't think you have made the case that the US and 181 of 192 other countries are not in violation of article 16.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
Let's ban all Christian Marriage.
- 07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM
1697 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me.
- 07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM
1078 Views
That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people.
- 07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM
1347 Views
Hey, look! There was a point over there!
- 07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM
1146 Views
Who else should make those decisions?
- 07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM
1103 Views
I'd totally...
- 08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM
1032 Views
I'd totally...
- 08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM
1185 Views
I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering.
- 08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM
1128 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged
- 08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM
1023 Views
*Shakes Head*
- 08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM
989 Views
I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM*
- 08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM
564 Views
Perhaps not in the physical sense.
- 08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM
1089 Views
Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense.
- 08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM
1045 Views
Re: *Shakes Head*
- 08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM
1038 Views
I still do not see how you think marriage is a "pointless" institution
- 08/08/2010 08:05:45 PM
1137 Views
No, I was referring to same-sex marriage. Real marriage hardly counts as a novelty. *NM*
- 11/08/2010 02:28:43 PM
469 Views
This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about.
- 08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM
981 Views
You cannot be that stupid.
- 11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM
1262 Views
There's a lot of ridiculous arguments here, but I'll focus on just one of them...
- 11/08/2010 03:38:05 PM
1181 Views
A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
- 08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM
1008 Views
Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad.
- 09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM
1071 Views
Is that assumption valid?
- 09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM
997 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid?
- 09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM
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Re: Is that assumption valid?
- 09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM
1094 Views
Not really
- 09/08/2010 01:20:46 PM
960 Views
Re: Not really
- 09/08/2010 01:27:04 PM
1089 Views
Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives.
- 11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM
1123 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
- 09/08/2010 11:25:39 AM
1032 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
- 09/08/2010 11:51:50 AM
990 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
- 09/08/2010 01:18:35 PM
1076 Views
Re: A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too
- 09/08/2010 02:54:19 PM
1106 Views
It should be noted again...
- 09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM
1116 Views
and how is it not a right?
- 09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM
997 Views
My definition of rights...
- 09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM
1115 Views
mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right.
- 10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM
876 Views
Article 16 probably not a great example
- 10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
970 Views
- 10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM
970 Views
You could just as easily move the emphasis...
- 10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM
1118 Views
If we need a more specific resolution...
- 10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM
1299 Views
No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
- 10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM
989 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
- 10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM
1312 Views
That's really a ridiculous stance, you do realize.
- 10/08/2010 03:23:02 PM
925 Views
The point is that marriage IS a right, one which cannot be denied based upon sexual orientation *NM*
- 10/08/2010 07:04:16 PM
746 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context
- 10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
1165 Views
It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though.
- 10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM
992 Views
I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
- 10/08/2010 06:09:32 PM
964 Views
Re: I know, and that's been brought up before. But that's not my point.
- 10/08/2010 06:33:56 PM
899 Views
It's mentioned as a right in some SC decision quoted in that Walker opinion. *NM*
- 10/08/2010 06:51:13 PM
481 Views
To clarify for you
- 10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM
966 Views
The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body...
- 10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM
1361 Views
I'm not sure that I would call the Security Council the 'Enforcement Body'
- 10/08/2010 08:43:02 PM
959 Views
The fact that it is capable of authorizing the use of military force makes it an enforcement body
- 10/08/2010 10:33:59 PM
1252 Views
What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless....
- 10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM
918 Views
Why don't YOU back up your assertion that the right to marry exists? *NM*
- 11/08/2010 03:16:02 PM
516 Views
The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right.
- 10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM
1101 Views
Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction...
- 10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM
1156 Views
Note it all you want...
- 10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM
848 Views
No, they seek to expand the terms of the partnership. Homosexuals can & do get married normally *NM*
- 11/08/2010 03:14:25 PM
550 Views
The best one yet.
- 10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM
1107 Views
Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
- 10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM
961 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
- 10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM
1083 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
- 11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM
980 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane
- 11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM
1113 Views
Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
- 11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM
1086 Views
Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel
- 11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM
1038 Views
