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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context Isaac Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
Well it isn't techinically legally binding on an international level anyway. At the moment. But wait a few years and my point will stand. :P


Not even a technicality, it's not a treaty and was never meant to be binding, I don't think that if it were a treaty it would have a snowballs chance in hell of being ratified, even with the normal senate exceptions and declarations tacked on to treaties.

Well it is arguable that the US is committing a whole series of violations, but Article 5 is the most blatent, 16 to follow it up. It never says that men and women have to be married to a member of the oppisite gender and though the choice of words may initially seem to provide fot that on further analysis it would at the very least permit homosexual marriage, at the most ensure it. I'm actually doing a campaign at my high school to get the UDHR integrated into the social studies curriculum, I think it is a major problem that so few people know or care about it.

The problem is lots of people go around declaring what something means, so courts decide, and I don't think you have made the case that the US and 181 of 192 other countries are not in violation of article 16.

Just because a vast majority of nations are committing a violation of the UDHR doesn't mean that it isn't a violation. Perhaps the ICJ needs to step and and make a judicial ruling on this, but until then I will hold that the UDHR provides for homosexual marriage.


If it makes you feel better go ahead :P The ICJ is not likely to rule more liberally than the European Court on Human Rights, which ruled there was no violation of human rights about a month ago on a gay marriage case arising in Austria. If most countries don't allow gay marriage though, that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but it does mean the current consensus of opinion is that it isn't a right, and naysayers are well advised to remember that 'on the international stage' the US has far more liberal laws on homosexuality than most countries. But whether it does or doesn't call it a right or allow gay marriage, it's basically tilting at windmills since it has no legal power and was designed not to have legal power. Our courts regularly borrow foreign judicial rulings as examples, they do not cite them as having legal power [some exceptions like maritime law]. The UHDR, while considerably more ethical than human rights laws of say, China, have no more legal weight in the US.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 10/08/2010 at 03:48:43 PM
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Let's ban all Christian Marriage. - 07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM 1802 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me. - 07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM 1186 Views
One small problem... - 07/08/2010 08:02:34 AM 1191 Views
Re tax. - 07/08/2010 08:47:22 AM 1237 Views
That seems sensible to me. - 09/08/2010 08:13:26 PM 1135 Views
Not sure what you mean by "demoted." - 07/08/2010 03:50:02 PM 1262 Views
Nice. *NM* - 07/08/2010 08:58:20 AM 682 Views
That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people. - 07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM 1444 Views
Hey, look! There was a point over there! - 07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM 1266 Views
Who else should make those decisions? - 07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM 1206 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM 1115 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM 1274 Views
You'd defend this idiot? *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:40:34 AM 569 Views
Indeed - 08/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 1214 Views
I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering. - 08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM 1218 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged - 08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM 1125 Views
Um, ok. *NM* - 10/08/2010 12:48:19 AM 567 Views
*Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM 1082 Views
I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM 602 Views
Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM 1188 Views
Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM 1142 Views
Gah! You did that on purpose! - 09/08/2010 01:05:13 AM 1087 Views
whoops *NM* - 09/08/2010 02:22:49 AM 526 Views
Re: *Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM 1144 Views
This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about. - 08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM 1076 Views
You cannot be that stupid. - 11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM 1356 Views
Incorrect. Genders are not treated equally. - 11/08/2010 07:53:00 PM 1471 Views
all you need is enough support to pass an amendment - 08/08/2010 02:46:08 PM 1064 Views
A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too - 08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM 1123 Views
And what is wrong with polygamy? *NM* - 09/08/2010 10:36:53 AM 578 Views
Did I say there was anything? - 09/08/2010 11:03:10 AM 1225 Views
Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad. - 09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM 1164 Views
Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM 1091 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM 1085 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM 1196 Views
Not really - 09/08/2010 01:20:46 PM 1052 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 01:27:04 PM 1178 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 02:14:43 PM 1047 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 03:06:31 PM 1234 Views
Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives. - 11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM 1225 Views
... - 11/08/2010 03:22:50 PM 1114 Views
Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 09/08/2010 06:13:30 PM 1236 Views
Re: Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 10/08/2010 01:24:06 AM 1045 Views
Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 04:09:43 PM 1160 Views
Re: Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 06:12:39 PM 1058 Views
Great post Danny - 09/08/2010 08:22:27 PM 922 Views
It should be noted again... - 09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM 1207 Views
and how is it not a right? - 09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM 1111 Views
My definition of rights... - 09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM 1204 Views
mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right. - 10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM 966 Views
+1 - 10/08/2010 03:11:22 AM 1263 Views
Article 16 probably not a great example - 10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM 1069 Views
You could just as easily move the emphasis... - 10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM 1216 Views
If we need a more specific resolution... - 10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM 1399 Views
No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM 1095 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM 1407 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM 1255 Views
It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though. - 10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM 1079 Views
It also doesn't say they can - 10/08/2010 04:41:18 AM 1079 Views
You're missing the point. It's not about gay marriage. - 10/08/2010 11:20:59 AM 1101 Views
No, I got that, I'm pointing out how it does so - 10/08/2010 01:47:00 PM 1089 Views
To clarify for you - 10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM 1066 Views
The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body... - 10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM 1453 Views
What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless.... - 10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM 1019 Views
and the Constitution dictates nothing about marriage. *NM* - 10/08/2010 11:46:24 PM 552 Views
That means it is up to the people. And they say "No." *NM* - 11/08/2010 03:13:12 PM 561 Views
No, but it does dictate things about rights and discrimination - 12/08/2010 03:48:02 PM 1257 Views
The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right. - 10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM 1188 Views
Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction... - 10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM 1247 Views
I agree - 10/08/2010 06:11:19 PM 946 Views
Yeah but this can't be used to prove that it IS a right... - 10/08/2010 07:30:57 PM 1371 Views
Note it all you want... - 10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 940 Views
The best one yet. - 10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM 1200 Views
Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM 1066 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM 1169 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM 1083 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM 1210 Views
Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel - 11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM 1186 Views
Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel - 11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM 1128 Views

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