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Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context Isaac Send a noteboard - 10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM
Well it isn't techinically legally binding on an international level anyway. At the moment. But wait a few years and my point will stand. :P


Not even a technicality, it's not a treaty and was never meant to be binding, I don't think that if it were a treaty it would have a snowballs chance in hell of being ratified, even with the normal senate exceptions and declarations tacked on to treaties.

Well it is arguable that the US is committing a whole series of violations, but Article 5 is the most blatent, 16 to follow it up. It never says that men and women have to be married to a member of the oppisite gender and though the choice of words may initially seem to provide fot that on further analysis it would at the very least permit homosexual marriage, at the most ensure it. I'm actually doing a campaign at my high school to get the UDHR integrated into the social studies curriculum, I think it is a major problem that so few people know or care about it.

The problem is lots of people go around declaring what something means, so courts decide, and I don't think you have made the case that the US and 181 of 192 other countries are not in violation of article 16.

Just because a vast majority of nations are committing a violation of the UDHR doesn't mean that it isn't a violation. Perhaps the ICJ needs to step and and make a judicial ruling on this, but until then I will hold that the UDHR provides for homosexual marriage.


If it makes you feel better go ahead :P The ICJ is not likely to rule more liberally than the European Court on Human Rights, which ruled there was no violation of human rights about a month ago on a gay marriage case arising in Austria. If most countries don't allow gay marriage though, that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but it does mean the current consensus of opinion is that it isn't a right, and naysayers are well advised to remember that 'on the international stage' the US has far more liberal laws on homosexuality than most countries. But whether it does or doesn't call it a right or allow gay marriage, it's basically tilting at windmills since it has no legal power and was designed not to have legal power. Our courts regularly borrow foreign judicial rulings as examples, they do not cite them as having legal power [some exceptions like maritime law]. The UHDR, while considerably more ethical than human rights laws of say, China, have no more legal weight in the US.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
This message last edited by Isaac on 10/08/2010 at 03:48:43 PM
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Let's ban all Christian Marriage. - 07/08/2010 06:36:13 AM 1890 Views
Nice satire, but it raises another point for me. - 07/08/2010 07:20:49 AM 1255 Views
One small problem... - 07/08/2010 08:02:34 AM 1256 Views
Re tax. - 07/08/2010 08:47:22 AM 1314 Views
That seems sensible to me. - 09/08/2010 08:13:26 PM 1199 Views
Not sure what you mean by "demoted." - 07/08/2010 03:50:02 PM 1326 Views
Nice. *NM* - 07/08/2010 08:58:20 AM 734 Views
That would only be appropriate if Christians wanted to ban secular unions of normal people. - 07/08/2010 11:51:29 AM 1517 Views
Hey, look! There was a point over there! - 07/08/2010 03:46:41 PM 1410 Views
Who else should make those decisions? - 07/08/2010 08:00:39 PM 1292 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 04:14:15 AM 1192 Views
I'd totally... - 08/08/2010 06:17:30 AM 1343 Views
You'd defend this idiot? *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:40:34 AM 611 Views
Indeed - 08/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 1281 Views
I used to think Joel was the biggest rambler on this site. I am seriously reconsidering. - 08/08/2010 05:24:56 AM 1286 Views
And my assessment of one poster as the most content-poor, non-contributing slug is unchanged - 08/08/2010 07:17:02 PM 1190 Views
Um, ok. *NM* - 10/08/2010 12:48:19 AM 617 Views
*Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 06:23:47 AM 1162 Views
I highly doubt Cannoli is "scared" of homosexuals *NM* - 08/08/2010 06:29:54 AM 634 Views
Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:35:53 AM 1282 Views
Re: Perhaps not in the physical sense. - 08/08/2010 06:46:56 AM 1208 Views
Gah! You did that on purpose! - 09/08/2010 01:05:13 AM 1158 Views
whoops *NM* - 09/08/2010 02:22:49 AM 566 Views
Re: *Shakes Head* - 08/08/2010 07:43:11 PM 1213 Views
This must be the "thought out reaction" I've heard so much about. - 08/08/2010 10:45:59 PM 1166 Views
You cannot be that stupid. - 11/08/2010 03:10:55 PM 1431 Views
Incorrect. Genders are not treated equally. - 11/08/2010 07:53:00 PM 1549 Views
all you need is enough support to pass an amendment - 08/08/2010 02:46:08 PM 1145 Views
A lot of the arguments would seem to justify polygamy and incest too - 08/08/2010 11:51:24 PM 1216 Views
And what is wrong with polygamy? *NM* - 09/08/2010 10:36:53 AM 628 Views
Did I say there was anything? - 09/08/2010 11:03:10 AM 1292 Views
Plolygamy and incest are not on the same level of bad. - 09/08/2010 11:00:07 AM 1234 Views
Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:36:26 AM 1179 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 11:46:42 AM 1153 Views
Re: Is that assumption valid? - 09/08/2010 12:07:22 PM 1261 Views
Not really - 09/08/2010 01:20:46 PM 1121 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 01:27:04 PM 1236 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 02:14:43 PM 1117 Views
Re: Not really - 09/08/2010 03:06:31 PM 1299 Views
Spoken like someone who does not have to insure an employee's six wives. - 11/08/2010 03:11:57 PM 1318 Views
... - 11/08/2010 03:22:50 PM 1187 Views
Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 09/08/2010 06:13:30 PM 1310 Views
Re: Mmm, but when you're strictly discussing marriage - 10/08/2010 01:24:06 AM 1108 Views
Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 04:09:43 PM 1232 Views
Re: Now I think about it, I'm not sure. - 10/08/2010 06:12:39 PM 1167 Views
Great post Danny - 09/08/2010 08:22:27 PM 1012 Views
It should be noted again... - 09/08/2010 08:59:32 PM 1274 Views
and how is it not a right? - 09/08/2010 09:19:12 PM 1188 Views
My definition of rights... - 09/08/2010 10:47:16 PM 1275 Views
mmm, but the UN has legally stated marriage as a right. - 10/08/2010 02:52:03 AM 1039 Views
+1 - 10/08/2010 03:11:22 AM 1335 Views
Article 16 probably not a great example - 10/08/2010 03:44:04 AM 1134 Views
You could just as easily move the emphasis... - 10/08/2010 04:08:46 AM 1291 Views
If we need a more specific resolution... - 10/08/2010 04:22:12 AM 1473 Views
No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 05:25:57 AM 1181 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 03:04:39 PM 1484 Views
Re: No, the choice of 'Men and Women' is too specific in the context - 10/08/2010 03:46:56 PM 1335 Views
It doesn't say a man can only marry a woman or vice versa, though. - 10/08/2010 04:24:17 AM 1153 Views
It also doesn't say they can - 10/08/2010 04:41:18 AM 1150 Views
You're missing the point. It's not about gay marriage. - 10/08/2010 11:20:59 AM 1179 Views
No, I got that, I'm pointing out how it does so - 10/08/2010 01:47:00 PM 1173 Views
To clarify for you - 10/08/2010 05:36:14 AM 1150 Views
The UNSC is actually the UN's enforcement body... - 10/08/2010 07:16:31 PM 1537 Views
What the UN thinks is *completely* worthless.... - 10/08/2010 06:43:15 PM 1104 Views
and the Constitution dictates nothing about marriage. *NM* - 10/08/2010 11:46:24 PM 590 Views
That means it is up to the people. And they say "No." *NM* - 11/08/2010 03:13:12 PM 602 Views
No, but it does dictate things about rights and discrimination - 12/08/2010 03:48:02 PM 1324 Views
The actual ruling on Prop 8 specifices marriage as a freedom, not a right. - 10/08/2010 12:02:17 AM 1256 Views
Out of curiosity, what would you say to using the Ninth Amendment, possibly in conjunction... - 10/08/2010 12:20:19 AM 1316 Views
I agree - 10/08/2010 06:11:19 PM 1014 Views
Yeah but this can't be used to prove that it IS a right... - 10/08/2010 07:30:57 PM 1466 Views
Note it all you want... - 10/08/2010 06:43:53 AM 1030 Views
The best one yet. - 10/08/2010 07:59:17 PM 1277 Views
Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 08:49:24 PM 1147 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 10/08/2010 09:03:11 PM 1234 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:35:03 PM 1151 Views
Re: Yeah, I'd agree that's pretty insane - 11/08/2010 04:41:23 PM 1286 Views
Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel - 11/08/2010 05:06:47 PM 1255 Views
Re: Hmm - been a long time since I read my copy of the graphic novel - 11/08/2010 05:09:23 PM 1204 Views

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