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Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
As Sareitha points out, I am firmly of the opinion that the State should provide for the marriage of all consenting adults of all orientations.

I am also firmly of the opinion that the State should keep its legislation out of private institutions - homes, churches, clubs, etc - unless what is happening there causes harm to people or their property.

My church will not marry (perform the ceremony for) people who are not members of the church. My church will not marry a Christian to a non-Christian (my husband is an athiest; we got married in the state church of England but I go to a Free Church of Scotland congregation). And my church will not perform weddings for homosexuals. All of those things are based on our reading of the Bible.

BUT: let me reiterate: I believe the State has a duty to provide marriage for all consenting adults of all orientations. Just the State should not force churches to perform those marriages which do not agree with their doctrine.

Is that clear enough for you?


Maybe it's because I'm not clear enough. I believe that IN ADDITION to having a secular, state oriented marriage for all consenting adults, private institutions like churches ought not be allowed to ban gay marriage.

It seems like you're not from the US so my points may not apply, but this post was directed at America. There are clear legal grounds for government interfering with private institutions. If there weren't, we'd still have segregation.

My point is that banning gay marriage on a religious level amounts to discrimination because gay marriage does not alter the essence of a religion.


The Supreme Court recently ruled that private institutions are allowed to discriminate on who they allow to be members. The case was about the Boy Scouts kicking out a gay man. The court decided that as a private institution, they have a right based on the right to freedom of association to decide with whom they will associate. They don't want to associate with queer folks, so they don't have to do so.

The same obviously applies to churches.


I don't know the circumstances of that case nor do I know the background. I've heard a lot of supreme court cases misinterpreted on this site and others, so if you don't mind I'd like you to give me the name of that case.

Also, Brown v. Board of Education pretty clearly stated that discrimination of certain brands was not permitted.

Whether or not discrimination is permitted on this level in churches is at question. I believe it is not because gay marriage does nothing to alter the essence of christianity.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2060 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1394 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1385 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1413 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1343 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1209 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1273 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1348 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1298 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1266 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 641 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1403 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1254 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1323 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1147 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1405 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 668 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 692 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1311 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1310 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1291 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1295 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1333 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1217 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1362 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1381 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1213 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1165 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1271 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1306 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1191 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1299 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1262 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1209 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1323 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1264 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1222 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1237 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1271 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1235 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1130 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1249 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1230 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1326 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1194 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1063 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1117 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1223 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1310 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1312 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1221 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1171 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 619 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1381 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1309 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1252 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1181 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1257 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1292 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1187 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1061 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1109 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1324 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 615 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 673 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 550 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1169 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1244 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1332 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1270 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1252 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1178 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1160 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1270 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1197 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1326 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1303 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 448 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1291 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1280 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 618 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1140 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1075 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 582 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1115 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1095 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1071 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 644 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1132 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1141 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1044 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1159 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1258 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1282 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1312 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1286 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1345 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1217 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1355 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1173 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1227 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1223 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1212 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1272 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1100 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1129 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1155 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1165 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1275 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1222 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1324 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1163 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1275 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1355 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 681 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 661 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1228 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 655 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1245 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1205 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1092 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1601 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1430 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 536 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1038 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1238 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 685 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1231 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 625 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1326 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1224 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1356 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1306 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1353 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1241 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1178 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1208 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1137 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1222 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1041 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1209 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1347 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 991 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 576 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 583 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1249 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 663 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1313 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1353 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 494 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1267 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1149 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1219 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1148 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1262 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1180 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1347 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1277 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1205 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1247 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1201 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1034 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1340 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 675 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 636 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1422 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1362 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1289 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1119 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1290 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 624 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 645 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1272 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1521 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1155 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1349 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1136 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1354 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1237 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1211 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1148 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1214 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1142 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1235 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1214 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1205 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1115 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1186 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1426 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1258 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1248 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1233 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1158 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1436 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1202 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1208 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1195 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1498 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1295 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1102 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1102 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1169 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1194 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1207 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1314 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 676 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1336 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 615 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1328 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1230 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1029 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 520 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1128 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 662 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1071 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1185 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1078 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1243 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1282 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 528 Views
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