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Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight Send a noteboard - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
As Sareitha points out, I am firmly of the opinion that the State should provide for the marriage of all consenting adults of all orientations.

I am also firmly of the opinion that the State should keep its legislation out of private institutions - homes, churches, clubs, etc - unless what is happening there causes harm to people or their property.

My church will not marry (perform the ceremony for) people who are not members of the church. My church will not marry a Christian to a non-Christian (my husband is an athiest; we got married in the state church of England but I go to a Free Church of Scotland congregation). And my church will not perform weddings for homosexuals. All of those things are based on our reading of the Bible.

BUT: let me reiterate: I believe the State has a duty to provide marriage for all consenting adults of all orientations. Just the State should not force churches to perform those marriages which do not agree with their doctrine.

Is that clear enough for you?


Maybe it's because I'm not clear enough. I believe that IN ADDITION to having a secular, state oriented marriage for all consenting adults, private institutions like churches ought not be allowed to ban gay marriage.

It seems like you're not from the US so my points may not apply, but this post was directed at America. There are clear legal grounds for government interfering with private institutions. If there weren't, we'd still have segregation.

My point is that banning gay marriage on a religious level amounts to discrimination because gay marriage does not alter the essence of a religion.


The Supreme Court recently ruled that private institutions are allowed to discriminate on who they allow to be members. The case was about the Boy Scouts kicking out a gay man. The court decided that as a private institution, they have a right based on the right to freedom of association to decide with whom they will associate. They don't want to associate with queer folks, so they don't have to do so.

The same obviously applies to churches.


I don't know the circumstances of that case nor do I know the background. I've heard a lot of supreme court cases misinterpreted on this site and others, so if you don't mind I'd like you to give me the name of that case.

Also, Brown v. Board of Education pretty clearly stated that discrimination of certain brands was not permitted.

Whether or not discrimination is permitted on this level in churches is at question. I believe it is not because gay marriage does nothing to alter the essence of christianity.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
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Gay Marriage MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM 2043 Views
I disagree on the latter part snoopcester - 12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM 1371 Views
I follow your point... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM 1358 Views
Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM 1397 Views
See, that's what I'm saying... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM 1324 Views
She didn't say that gays ought not be married. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 07:45:37 PM 1192 Views
You didn't read my post. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM 1251 Views
Actually, you didn't read my post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM 1328 Views
Um, you're wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM 1276 Views
Re: Um, you're wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM 1247 Views
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM 634 Views
You're still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM 1381 Views
Re: You're still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM 1235 Views
Again, you are still wrong. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM 1298 Views
Re: Again, you are still wrong. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM 1125 Views
Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM 1384 Views
My clubs are cooler than yours. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:35:13 PM 661 Views
I play golf with mine. *NM* Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:43:01 PM 683 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM 1292 Views
Are you a member of one of those churches? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:44:12 PM 1291 Views
Also also: Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:46:05 PM 1271 Views
Re: Are you a member of one of those churches? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:49:44 PM 1274 Views
Re: Wrong definition of "club" Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:47:20 PM 1312 Views
I don't think he means that kind of club. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:31:41 PM 1199 Views
Also MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM 1344 Views
And wrong again. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM 1361 Views
Not so quick! MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM 1196 Views
Yes, so quick! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM 1146 Views
Let's be reasonable here MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM 1252 Views
Why do you get to judge? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM 1284 Views
I don't MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM 1173 Views
OK. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM 1280 Views
Re: OK. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM 1243 Views
Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM 1190 Views
Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM 1300 Views
Then please stop. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM 1245 Views
What's wrong with discussion? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM 1202 Views
Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM 1218 Views
Really? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:13:46 PM 1251 Views
Yes. That is incorrect. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:18:05 PM 1215 Views
What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM 1113 Views
Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay? MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM 1233 Views
Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM 1209 Views
Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM 1309 Views
Apparently you do believe that you are more qualified Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:57:00 PM 1175 Views
You are wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 11:11:37 PM 1041 Views
Really? Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:19:10 PM 1101 Views
Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM 1205 Views
Heh... we discuss restaurants a post or two over there.. ---> Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:10:26 PM 1288 Views
Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM 1291 Views
Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM 1196 Views
Gah. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM 1154 Views
Yes yes yes. It was ungracious. I got bored. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:03:17 PM 610 Views
What a mature response. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM 1356 Views
Yes. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:21:38 PM 1283 Views
Re: Yes. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:35:51 PM 1234 Views
I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM 1159 Views
I think my point was unclear in that post MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:55:34 PM 1234 Views
It seems that by your (to me nebulous) definition Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 11:05:01 PM 1274 Views
Re: I think my point was unclear in that post Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:58:28 AM 1161 Views
+1 Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:16:24 AM 1042 Views
Hehe Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:46:25 AM 1089 Views
Um Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM 1304 Views
That's a very good question. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM 607 Views
So good it doesn't even need an answer, apparently *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 10:26:41 PM 664 Views
So good I responded to it someplace else. *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:56:05 PM 543 Views
It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM 1151 Views
Re: It makes no sense MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM 1223 Views
Re: It makes no sense Camilla - 12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM 1314 Views
It's not sanctioning anything MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:25:44 PM 1254 Views
Re: It's not sanctioning anything Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:28:45 PM 1236 Views
Nonsense snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:35:25 PM 1160 Views
Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... Kronin al'Sulc - 12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM 1137 Views
Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder... MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM 1246 Views
Suspect you've not read that either. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:43:32 PM 1172 Views
What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM 1310 Views
Infant baptism, obviously. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 09:51:48 PM 1283 Views
*NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:53:17 PM 441 Views
*groan* I forgot that one! Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:09:07 PM 1268 Views
Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin? Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM 1261 Views
Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM 610 Views
really? Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:42:42 PM 1120 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM 1053 Views
Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM 575 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM 1094 Views
Which is interesting Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 04:28:09 PM 1075 Views
Yes Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:29:25 PM 1054 Views
Original poster. *NM* Rebekah - 13/08/2010 04:32:18 PM 634 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:34:30 PM 1114 Views
Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM 1124 Views
I like the part in 1 Corinthians (is it chapter 6?) Rebekah - 12/08/2010 10:49:55 PM 1024 Views
Ya know?!? Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:55:27 PM 1142 Views
I'm not sure you're correct there. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:33:02 PM 1237 Views
Re: I'm not sure you're correct there. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:40:16 PM 1260 Views
There is a difference... Dannymac - 12/08/2010 09:02:20 PM 1290 Views
No you don't. snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:16:52 PM 1265 Views
That's another concern Isaac - 12/08/2010 12:39:53 PM 1325 Views
Not quite my point snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:19:50 PM 1193 Views
secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM 1332 Views
Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately. Legolas - 12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM 1154 Views
And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM 1205 Views
It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM 1208 Views
I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM 1188 Views
What in the world would that accomplish? random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM 1251 Views
Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently. Legolas - 12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM 1084 Views
the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition.. random thoughts - 12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM 1111 Views
heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough* Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM 1135 Views
thats OK I am sure you will get over it random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM 1145 Views
Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit. Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM 1258 Views
Really? I was hoping for something better random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM 1205 Views
So government recognition makes your religion meaningful? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM 1295 Views
not my religion I'm agnostic random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM 1146 Views
OK, but the point remains the same. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:51:59 PM 1258 Views
Of course it would random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:10:03 PM 1331 Views
I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM 672 Views
no but your are European and that slants your views *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM 652 Views
Sure, but in this case it has little to do with left or right. Legolas - 12/08/2010 10:40:42 PM 1212 Views
that is what I said when I metioned you were European *NM* random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:11:31 PM 648 Views
Simples snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM 1225 Views
there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM 1186 Views
So. snoopcester - 14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM 1074 Views
sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad random thoughts - 14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM 1585 Views
You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny snoopcester - 15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM 1409 Views
Agreed *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM 529 Views
I love you, Camilla lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM 1018 Views
Re: I love you, Camilla Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM 1220 Views
Is there an all above option? *NM* lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:23:24 PM 677 Views
Naturally. Camilla - 12/08/2010 04:25:14 PM 1212 Views
I know I do *NM* LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:17:35 PM 619 Views
Another thing MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:42:21 PM 1305 Views
A couple of things SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM 1199 Views
I disagree MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:47:26 PM 1338 Views
Well, you're within your rights to certainly SilverWarder - 12/08/2010 08:24:30 PM 1286 Views
there is major flaw in your argument random thoughts - 12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM 1333 Views
Re: there is major flaw in your argument lyringlas - 12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM 1221 Views
I should clarify that I support gay marriage random thoughts - 12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM 1152 Views
One point about Prop. 8 Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM 1186 Views
I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM 1117 Views
Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM 1204 Views
that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons random thoughts - 12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM 1021 Views
Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions. Phelix - 12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM 1189 Views
there are major flaws in your argument MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM 1334 Views
Women can't be priests in the Catholic church. Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM 977 Views
Hehe. You beat me by 6 seconds. *NM* Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:03:28 PM 568 Views
Great minds and all. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/08/2010 08:06:01 PM 571 Views
I was writing a reply to this post... lyringlas - 12/08/2010 03:51:01 PM 1228 Views
I feel your pain *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:52:28 PM 655 Views
Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional. Tom - 12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM 1294 Views
100% agreed. LadyLorraine - 12/08/2010 05:05:35 PM 1333 Views
This. *NM* Ghavrel - 12/08/2010 07:36:57 PM 488 Views
You are absolutely wrong MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM 1238 Views
By that token Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:00:30 PM 1133 Views
My God.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:49:18 PM 1197 Views
no You are absolutely wrong random thoughts - 12/08/2010 10:08:57 PM 1129 Views
Well, that was horrifyingly stupid. Ghavrel - 13/08/2010 12:57:46 AM 1238 Views
Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin. Tom - 13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM 1161 Views
I am a Christian who wholeheartedly supports Gay Marriage. Seriana Sedai - 12/08/2010 06:49:28 PM 1336 Views
Fair enough. MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 08:01:37 PM 1260 Views
Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM 1186 Views
Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning... Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM 1230 Views
So then.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 07:39:24 PM 1177 Views
Well, strongly anti-gay, yes. Legolas - 12/08/2010 07:43:40 PM 1019 Views
Homophobic is generally "anti-gay" or "anti-queer"... Phelix - 12/08/2010 07:46:22 PM 1322 Views
Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM* MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM 668 Views
I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM 631 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Sidious - 12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM 1397 Views
+1 Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM 1343 Views
Stop with the pile on Camilla. Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM 1264 Views
You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed" Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM 1093 Views
Which speaks highly of you.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM 1268 Views
This is being very petty. *NM* Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM 617 Views
As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM 638 Views
It's not snarky. Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM 1244 Views
Its a +1 shorthand comment... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM 1499 Views
Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations? Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM 1140 Views
*shrug* Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:58:42 PM 1331 Views
Yes, I am terribly selfish Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:10:54 AM 1117 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM 1333 Views
Re: Why do people equate.... Camilla - 12/08/2010 09:26:41 PM 1213 Views
LOL Rebekah - 12/08/2010 09:42:32 PM 1194 Views
Re: LOL Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:12:29 AM 1130 Views
you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious snoopcester - 12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM 1192 Views
Ok, so if the state does then... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM 1118 Views
No, marriage started because of property. Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM 1211 Views
So then two things come to mind... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM 1194 Views
Only two? Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM 1188 Views
Is this the same guy... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:43:02 PM 1096 Views
I thought the cow died in an accident, but yes... that guy. Phelix - 12/08/2010 10:58:46 PM 1167 Views
That's a little difficult to do SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM 1403 Views
Re: That's a little difficult to do Camilla - 13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM 1235 Views
Oh, I hope not SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 04:19:47 PM 1224 Views
I may be wrong Camilla - 13/08/2010 04:24:28 PM 1213 Views
Property isn't just agricultural. Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:11:12 PM 1136 Views
True enough SilverWarder - 16/08/2010 03:12:31 PM 1415 Views
yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights random thoughts - 13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM 1180 Views
The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back... Phelix - 13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM 1190 Views
to me it is a beside the point when it comes to the law random thoughts - 13/08/2010 06:25:50 PM 1179 Views
moot, not mute Camilla - 13/08/2010 08:48:04 PM 1480 Views
damn random thoughts - 13/08/2010 08:52:23 PM 1279 Views
Actually, I agree with that snoopcester - 12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM 1081 Views
See, now this, I could deal with.... Jeordam - 12/08/2010 10:06:15 PM 1082 Views
So is it that you are hung up on the name then? SilverWarder - 13/08/2010 03:29:02 PM 1147 Views
Rights.... Phelix - 12/08/2010 09:34:45 PM 1171 Views
See, what I don't get is why gay people care about jh - 12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM 1185 Views
It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM 1292 Views
I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM* Legolas - 12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM 667 Views
Hmmm... Then I shall reply to that part here. Phelix - 12/08/2010 08:50:10 PM 1315 Views
Oh, so it is an american thing, then. *NM* jh - 14/08/2010 08:58:28 AM 607 Views
Starting again Camilla - 12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM 1311 Views
Not at all MalkierKnight - 12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM 1209 Views
Re: Not at all Camilla - 13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM 1010 Views
Agreed *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM 512 Views
Oh dear Camilla - 13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM 1108 Views
But what if I like being selfish and evil? *NM* snoopcester - 13/08/2010 11:25:01 AM 654 Views
Well, being English might help you get away with it Camilla - 13/08/2010 11:26:17 AM 1047 Views
I'm curious Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:49:15 PM 1168 Views
Camilla - 13/08/2010 01:54:19 PM 1045 Views
Okay, good. Sareitha Sedai - 13/08/2010 01:58:14 PM 1223 Views
I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft? Dannymac - 12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM 1262 Views
very nicely said *NM* random thoughts - 13/08/2010 02:16:53 PM 520 Views
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