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I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM
But I think what this and personal experience shows me is that while people need to be free to choose whichever path they want the efforts to erase gender differences in society are mostly in doomed to fail. There more differences between boys and girls than the plumbing. Society needs to be just but you can't make it equal. Both genders have strengths and weaknesses. Most people are willing to admit that but claiming men are better than women at anything beyond opening jars makes you a sexist.

Men are probably better on average than women at math. That doesn’t mean you cannot have women engineers but it does mean you will probably have less and the difference is small enough that really good women engineers will be better then most male engineers. The ones that are should be paid better but less qualified ones should not be promoted to create a false balance.

If we want to create more equality in pay we can do it by increasing the pay for historically female jobs but if you take this survey at face value most women would prefer you simply pay their husband more and let them be less concerned with a career so they can focus on their real interest which is family.

There are definite physiological differences that tend to make one sex better suited for certain tasks, but that doesn't mean there's inherent inequality, only differences. The example I usually cite is the one SilverWarder provided on upper/lower body strength: The physical changes that occur at puberty tend to result in men having more upper and less lower body strength than women. That means they aren't the same; it does NOT mean they aren't equal (though in practice the ablities of any two people are very unlikely to be exactly equal). For some reason lately I've been obligated to tell a lot of people to go read "A Wrinkle in Time". :P If you want equality you pay people on the basis of their performance rather than on the historical gender association of their particular profession and (believe it or not) it's when we substitute things like race and sex for performance that I think we err.

EDIT: To satisfy certain peoples prescriptivism.... :P
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This message last edited by Joel on 12/01/2011 at 02:36:15 AM
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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2459 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1515 Views
I don't trust the figures. - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1517 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1586 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1519 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1519 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1522 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1472 Views
It's not just that choice though. - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1603 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 833 Views
For you maybe. - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1516 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1515 Views
Well. - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1540 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1513 Views
all 25 of them? - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1480 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1529 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 1382 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1419 Views
it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1461 Views
Re: it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1435 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 881 Views
- 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1428 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1563 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1546 Views
In addition... - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1420 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1384 Views
Another one? - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1433 Views
Re: Another one? - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1448 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 936 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1536 Views
not to mention - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1477 Views
In addition - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1409 Views
you don't want kids? - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1416 Views
bleck - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1425 Views
again not the vibe I get from you - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1396 Views
Hehe. - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1462 Views
Not selfish. - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1434 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1482 Views
Poor Aeryn - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1406 Views
I replied before she edited - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 1360 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1474 Views
Certainly. *NM* - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 873 Views
The primary issue... - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1404 Views
*NM* - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 807 Views
What Rebekah said... - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1415 Views
Me too! - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1475 Views
Re: Me too! - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1495 Views
I have a fiancee like that. - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1419 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1406 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1568 Views
I think all of that makes sense - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1448 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 1382 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 1366 Views
men have more physical strength period - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1397 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 1420 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1450 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 1326 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1423 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 1339 Views
I'm trying to understand your position - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 1415 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 1307 Views
Now you've got it. - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1496 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 768 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 1374 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1415 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1438 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 1265 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1438 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1445 Views
oops - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1448 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 1346 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1606 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1525 Views
I would also like to say this: - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1421 Views
Of course - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1466 Views
Re: Of course - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1434 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1453 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1437 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 1340 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1398 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1457 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1437 Views
No - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 1318 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 1301 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1410 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1411 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1457 Views
Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1447 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1455 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 1376 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1392 Views
Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 1382 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1467 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 799 Views
It really doesn't surprise me - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1412 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1452 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1445 Views
Well put. *NM* - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 776 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1449 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1445 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2601 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 1381 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1441 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 1388 Views
Gotcha. - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 1351 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 1342 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 1340 Views
they never mention their study methods - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1422 Views
Gosh, look what you started. - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1422 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 818 Views
Seriously *NM* - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 783 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1466 Views
that part would be great - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1425 Views
I could do it every day. - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 1357 Views
Me too... - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1462 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1426 Views
They do. - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 1356 Views
read further up the thread - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1482 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1490 Views
I feel I have that choice. - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1411 Views
They most certainly do. - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1512 Views
This sounds awful to me. - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1416 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1419 Views
Yikes. - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1403 Views

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