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I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel Send a noteboard - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM
But I think what this and personal experience shows me is that while people need to be free to choose whichever path they want the efforts to erase gender differences in society are mostly in doomed to fail. There more differences between boys and girls than the plumbing. Society needs to be just but you can't make it equal. Both genders have strengths and weaknesses. Most people are willing to admit that but claiming men are better than women at anything beyond opening jars makes you a sexist.

Men are probably better on average than women at math. That doesn’t mean you cannot have women engineers but it does mean you will probably have less and the difference is small enough that really good women engineers will be better then most male engineers. The ones that are should be paid better but less qualified ones should not be promoted to create a false balance.

If we want to create more equality in pay we can do it by increasing the pay for historically female jobs but if you take this survey at face value most women would prefer you simply pay their husband more and let them be less concerned with a career so they can focus on their real interest which is family.

There are definite physiological differences that tend to make one sex better suited for certain tasks, but that doesn't mean there's inherent inequality, only differences. The example I usually cite is the one SilverWarder provided on upper/lower body strength: The physical changes that occur at puberty tend to result in men having more upper and less lower body strength than women. That means they aren't the same; it does NOT mean they aren't equal (though in practice the ablities of any two people are very unlikely to be exactly equal). For some reason lately I've been obligated to tell a lot of people to go read "A Wrinkle in Time". :P If you want equality you pay people on the basis of their performance rather than on the historical gender association of their particular profession and (believe it or not) it's when we substitute things like race and sex for performance that I think we err.

EDIT: To satisfy certain peoples prescriptivism.... :P
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This message last edited by Joel on 12/01/2011 at 02:36:15 AM
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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2511 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1580 Views
I don't trust the figures. - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1559 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1636 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1570 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1569 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1563 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1525 Views
It's not just that choice though. - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1644 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 859 Views
For you maybe. - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1565 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1568 Views
Well. - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1588 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1560 Views
all 25 of them? - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1544 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1590 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 1439 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1464 Views
it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1500 Views
Re: it is nuanced - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1484 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 910 Views
- 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1475 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1600 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1596 Views
In addition... - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1479 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1428 Views
Another one? - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1483 Views
Re: Another one? - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1515 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 985 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1584 Views
not to mention - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1522 Views
In addition - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1478 Views
you don't want kids? - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1462 Views
bleck - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1471 Views
again not the vibe I get from you - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1438 Views
Hehe. - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1507 Views
Not selfish. - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1481 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1545 Views
Poor Aeryn - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1457 Views
I replied before she edited - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 1400 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1523 Views
Certainly. *NM* - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 903 Views
The primary issue... - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1453 Views
*NM* - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 835 Views
What Rebekah said... - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1466 Views
Me too! - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1518 Views
Re: Me too! - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1536 Views
I have a fiancee like that. - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1459 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1450 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1617 Views
I think all of that makes sense - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1505 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 1438 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 1412 Views
men have more physical strength period - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1441 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 1470 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1514 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 1378 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1485 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 1389 Views
I'm trying to understand your position - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 1470 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 1371 Views
Now you've got it. - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1558 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 799 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 1419 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1458 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1486 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 1302 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1477 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1502 Views
oops - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1525 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 1408 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1659 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1586 Views
I would also like to say this: - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1466 Views
Of course - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1514 Views
Re: Of course - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1476 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1494 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1503 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 1377 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1445 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1504 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1479 Views
No - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 1362 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 1351 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1459 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1465 Views
Re: No - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1496 Views
Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1495 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1505 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 1436 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1430 Views
Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 1430 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1504 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 825 Views
It really doesn't surprise me - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1460 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1501 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1504 Views
Well put. *NM* - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 807 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1497 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1489 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2654 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 1423 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1493 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 1435 Views
Gotcha. - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 1400 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 1388 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 1455 Views
they never mention their study methods - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1466 Views
Gosh, look what you started. - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1478 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 846 Views
Seriously *NM* - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 811 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1509 Views
that part would be great - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1466 Views
I could do it every day. - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 1402 Views
Me too... - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1505 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1470 Views
They do. - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 1409 Views
read further up the thread - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1528 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1532 Views
I feel I have that choice. - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1451 Views
They most certainly do. - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1570 Views
This sounds awful to me. - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1463 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1462 Views
Yikes. - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1443 Views

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