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You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts Send a noteboard - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM
Here is a study that shows significantly different spatial skills already appearing in infants. It doesn’t offer an explanation for why there is a difference but offers evidence that is hard to argue with short expanding the sampling size to rule out errors.

We shouldn't ignore evidence just because we don't like the implications. We also shouldn’t over read it, I wouldn’t discourage my daughter from being an engineer.


Which is a shame, 'cos I'd like to see the study, but it's also easily fixed. Expanding samples to reduce error is always a good idea, which is one of the benefits of multiple studies, but beyond a certain point you get marginal returns. *resists the urge to discuss FL exit polling in 2000 and 2004*

1) We have a study that indicates infant boys, as a whole, tend to have better spatial reasoning than infant girls, while noting that doesn't preclude individual girls performing as well, just that it's more common in boys,


We have a study that shows infant to do considerably better then infant girls at spatial reasoning. Nobody is claiming that girls can't do just that boys on average do it better. The study supports the argument that the average boy will do better then the average girl but that some girls will do better then the average boy. Which is what I have been saying all along.

2) Overall, math achievement is roughly equal, because spatial reasoning is just one aspect of math ability,


Sorry but as I mentioned before blanket statement do not qualify as arguments. Do you have any reasoning to back up that claim? Now girls do as well in the early math classes as boys higher math requires spatial reasoning so no they are not equal.

3) "If girls think they don’t do well in a subject, they have a diminished interest in it". I'd say that applies to all students; people who expect to fail usually find a way to make it happen, regardless of their sex, and probably the number of boys who suck at cooking is similar to the number of girls who suck at math because of social sexual norms, but most importantly,


That is just an argument to ignore reality because we don't like it. Do you have a study that shows boys under perform girls in some critical cooking skill? Do you have some study that shows men under perform women in the highest levels of cooking?

The study was done with infants to remove the argument that social norms were playing a factor.

4) None of the preconditioning involved in that, either biological or social, is set in stone, and at the end of the day the success of any one child in any one area will have more to do with individual ability as well as the ability of educators and parents to stimulate interest and encourage performance than it has to do with either the subject or the students sex.


that is statement of faith not science. No matter how badly a girls wants to be a NFL football player she never will and not because the boys want let her but because she just won't be good enough. She will be to small, to weak and to slow.

Natural ability does matter. all of the education in the world will make a long term impact on IQ test results. It is possible that we can develop early learning education that will improve spatial skills but unless it only helps females it will simply raise the bar.

There appears to be a sex advantage IN ONE AREA, overall achievement is roughly equal, at least to a point, but girls tend to have less interest in math because they're expected to perform more poorly; nevertheless, most developmentally normal children can succeed in any field if what native ability they have is stimulated and encouraged. Perhaps that's the biggest factor in what IS "developmentally normal".


It is critical area. You say there is equal achievement to point but you are ignoring that it is the point where things get hard and where math really starts to matter. Saying you do well at math except for geometry and calculus means you are not good at higher math. Not being good at higher math means you will have a hell of time do most hard science.

Thanks for the link, it was quite interesting.

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Looks like the feminist movement wasn't as successful as it appears random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:21:01 PM 2225 Views
I think you're extrapolating a bit too much beetnemesis - 11/01/2011 06:45:38 PM 1305 Views
The aricle does mention that women feel pressured to work when they did not want to random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:48:47 PM 1300 Views
I don't trust the figures. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:50:24 PM 1329 Views
One assumes the latter, to the extent that "same job with same experience" can be defined. *NM* Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:10:13 PM 691 Views
One might assume that, but it's not necessarily so. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 08:58:14 PM 1282 Views
While I don't 100% agree with the article, some feminists annoy me no end. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 06:47:03 PM 1334 Views
My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career random thoughts - 11/01/2011 06:52:11 PM 1315 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:35:43 PM 1292 Views
Re: My wife told me just this weekend I need to stop pressuring her to have a career Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:36:14 AM 1318 Views
Yeah, got one like that, too. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:17:17 AM 1319 Views
yeah prett much anything gross that isn't in a diaper is my job random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:12:11 AM 1257 Views
It's not just that choice though. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:12:48 PM 1377 Views
It feels more hypocritical coming from feminists than "traditionalists". *NM* Rebekah - 11/01/2011 07:17:24 PM 723 Views
For you maybe. Sareitha Sedai - 11/01/2011 07:27:52 PM 1311 Views
there is definitely some SAHM snobbery random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:43:21 PM 1284 Views
Well. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:34:42 PM 1339 Views
I agree. I would also like to add, if I may... Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:27:59 AM 1321 Views
all 25 of them? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:14:56 AM 1271 Views
Pffft, look it up a bit. You might find info on the national propaganda radio (NPR) site. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 12:47:33 PM 1321 Views
It's a difficult dynamic even under the best of circumstances, when both partners have chosen it. Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:20 PM 1168 Views
I agree, it's very difficult. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 03:14:59 PM 1198 Views
it is nuanced random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:06:39 PM 1240 Views
Re: it is nuanced Avendesora - 12/01/2011 04:58:36 PM 1248 Views
You are spot on. As usual. About everything. *NM* Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:42:18 AM 762 Views
Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 02:25:59 PM 1231 Views
I have to admit that this bothers me. rebelaessedai - 11/01/2011 07:33:09 PM 1344 Views
I don't expect people to understand my choice necessarily. Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:36:52 PM 1345 Views
In addition... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:39:25 PM 1207 Views
I guess you think the same of me then. Clover - 11/01/2011 09:48:31 PM 1201 Views
Another one? rebelaessedai - 12/01/2011 06:01:43 AM 1234 Views
Re: Another one? Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:33:58 PM 1261 Views
~never mind~ *NM* *NM* Aeryn - 12/01/2011 04:42:47 PM 824 Views
I'm going to answer you anyway. Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:54:18 PM 1321 Views
not to mention nossy - 12/01/2011 05:11:42 PM 1283 Views
In addition Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:23:25 PM 1216 Views
you don't want kids? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:46:25 PM 1194 Views
bleck nossy - 12/01/2011 11:14:25 PM 1222 Views
again not the vibe I get from you random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:38:26 PM 1195 Views
Hehe. Clover - 13/01/2011 12:15:06 AM 1245 Views
Not selfish. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:45:43 AM 1239 Views
You don't have to be a doctor to contribute to the world random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:27:26 PM 1284 Views
Poor Aeryn Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:29:47 PM 1209 Views
I replied before she edited random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:41:53 PM 1155 Views
Am I at least absolved from having to respond? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:11:27 AM 1255 Views
Certainly. *NM* Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:40:09 AM 759 Views
The primary issue... Jacob - 12/01/2011 05:52:42 PM 1183 Views
*NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:54:29 PM 687 Views
Agreed; ironically, that first line applies to this thread and mine with the parenting article. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:00:28 PM 1352 Views
What Rebekah said... Clover - 15/01/2011 07:55:34 PM 1189 Views
Me too! Clover - 11/01/2011 09:43:57 PM 1278 Views
Re: Me too! Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 01:23:39 AM 1277 Views
It has been a long, long time since I have seen a woman getting looked down on for staying at home. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:48:42 AM 1130 Views
I have a fiancee like that. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:14:53 AM 1199 Views
I feel so fortunate to be a stay at home mom. Beqi - 12/01/2011 11:32:37 PM 1177 Views
My commentary on the whys and wherefores of this stuff would be way too politically incorrect SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 07:56:24 PM 1353 Views
I think all of that makes sense random thoughts - 11/01/2011 08:36:39 PM 1253 Views
In this particular case I don't disagree with you. SilverWarder - 11/01/2011 09:28:13 PM 1179 Views
I'm not sure why either sex should surpass the other in math. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:34:09 AM 1161 Views
men have more physical strength period random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:30:14 AM 1183 Views
There's a lot more to running (especially marathons) then leg strength. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:41:11 AM 1198 Views
how much time the experts spend being wrong doesn't make them less wrong random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:10 PM 1164 Views
How much more time they've spent studying it before drawing conclusions makes a big difference. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:42:26 PM 1177 Views
your right it is just a coincidence that their results always matches their politics random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:56:03 PM 1223 Views
There's definitely such a thing as a self fulfilling prophecy. Joel - 12/01/2011 07:00:23 PM 1186 Views
so you would trust them if they only admitted conseratives? random thoughts - 12/01/2011 09:51:00 PM 1209 Views
Admitted? No, but they'll take anyone with the grades. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:47:42 PM 1214 Views
Every study I have seen shows most schools have few to no non-leberal proffesors random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:08 PM 1148 Views
Every study I've ever seen shows that math and science fields have few to no women. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:42:46 PM 1247 Views
not when we know men are better at math thewpmen are random thoughts - 13/01/2011 11:10:18 PM 1285 Views
Sigh... we know no such thing, and even if we did, it would be those biased liberals telling us. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:30:33 PM 1123 Views
When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 03:47:53 PM 1236 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Macharius - 12/01/2011 04:32:38 PM 1133 Views
Re: When you talk about reasons men "should" be better at math Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 04:41:42 PM 1218 Views
Both, really; the latter is a consequence of the former. Joel - 12/01/2011 05:21:28 PM 1116 Views
I'm trying to understand your position Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 05:28:43 PM 1183 Views
try string theory, it makes more sense than Joel logic random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:57:27 PM 1118 Views
Now you've got it. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:40:50 PM 1271 Views
Okay, that's fair. *NM* Sareitha Sedai - 12/01/2011 06:42:30 PM 676 Views
Glad we were able to reach an understanding. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:02:47 PM 1168 Views
Re: I'm trying to understand your position Camilla - 13/01/2011 08:12:05 PM 1229 Views
we know the brain of women works differently then the brains of men random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:15 PM 1232 Views
What evidence I'm aware of seems inconclusive. Joel - 12/01/2011 06:46:50 PM 1076 Views
There are theories but of course they are unprovable random thoughts - 12/01/2011 10:50:08 PM 1180 Views
That's a logical rationale, and might even be accurate, but in this case I want hard evidence. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:03:32 PM 1115 Views
I think if you look you find you believe all sorts of things that can't be proven random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:03:54 PM 1183 Views
I have, and have frequently argued everyone holds such beliefs. Joel - 13/01/2011 10:33:01 PM 1063 Views
here is some evdience to argue that it is not society but biology random thoughts - 13/01/2011 08:43:43 PM 1223 Views
I think you did like I always do and forgot to give us a way to click your link. Joel - 13/01/2011 09:56:52 PM 1221 Views
oops random thoughts - 13/01/2011 10:07:55 PM 1239 Views
Seems like that's an argument for both views, in a way. Joel - 13/01/2011 11:14:11 PM 1136 Views
You can use anything to prove what you want if you are willing to spin it hard enough random thoughts - 14/01/2011 02:57:29 PM 1363 Views
I used YOUR article to "prove" what it says outright. Joel - 15/01/2011 05:35:27 PM 1321 Views
I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 11/01/2011 09:33:23 PM 1201 Views
Of course Tom - 12/01/2011 01:47:14 AM 1228 Views
Re: Of course Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:57:11 PM 1226 Views
"Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Legolas - 12/01/2011 07:58:12 PM 1243 Views
Re: "Night" is also almost invariably feminine, in my experience. Camilla - 12/01/2011 08:15:59 PM 1238 Views
It's true for Arabic and hence, one suspects, Hebrew. Legolas - 13/01/2011 07:43:21 PM 1143 Views
I'm glad YOU think it's fun... Joel - 13/01/2011 10:05:07 PM 1208 Views
I seem to remember reading about genders in Norwegian once, but I forget now... Legolas - 13/01/2011 10:11:24 PM 1244 Views
I think you may be right, but I'll no more after next week. Joel - 14/01/2011 12:20:54 AM 1342 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Camilla - 12/01/2011 09:15:28 AM 1233 Views
Re: I would also like to say this: Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:27:14 PM 1212 Views
No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:28:48 PM 1125 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:35:56 PM 1088 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:37:33 PM 1217 Views
Re: No Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:43:36 PM 1205 Views
Re: No Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:47:56 PM 1252 Views
Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 12:54:54 PM 1235 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Camilla - 12/01/2011 12:56:20 PM 1232 Views
Re: Since this has become too complicated Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:55:50 PM 1160 Views
The two are used as different psychological concepts. Darth_Katie - 12/01/2011 02:24:58 PM 1187 Views
Again, used incorrectly. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:34:22 PM 1163 Views
Re: Again, used incorrectly. Camilla - 12/01/2011 04:00:59 PM 1256 Views
Exactly. *NM* Rebekah - 12/01/2011 04:53:03 PM 682 Views
It really doesn't surprise me Beqi - 12/01/2011 12:36:19 AM 1209 Views
Have you left a memo at the Feminist Movement's Office? Dannymac - 12/01/2011 12:46:45 AM 1248 Views
what the point? Like good liberals they only believe science that agrees with them *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:31:09 AM 614 Views
Actually, the feminist movement was completely successful. Tom - 12/01/2011 01:42:44 AM 1241 Views
Well put. *NM* everynametaken - 12/01/2011 02:10:56 AM 678 Views
I was playing a bit but I agree that the feminist in the past accomplished a lot random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:34:04 AM 1228 Views
NOW is just a left-leaning PAC. Tom - 12/01/2011 03:16:52 PM 1197 Views
I would argue the women's movement and the feminist movement are not the same thing random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:53:19 PM 1193 Views
Now if only others were so rational about it. SilverWarder - 17/01/2011 05:55:57 AM 2372 Views
Nevermind, Tom beat me to it. Avendesora - 12/01/2011 01:54:07 AM 1168 Views
Mmm. I don't think you understand the feminist movement. You have been reading to many things Tashmere - 12/01/2011 01:56:20 AM 1233 Views
I was refering to groups like NOW random thoughts - 12/01/2011 05:40:46 AM 1182 Views
Gotcha. Tashmere - 12/01/2011 11:53:29 PM 1162 Views
I was being a tad bit trollish with my title random thoughts - 13/01/2011 01:47:30 AM 1135 Views
I'm not sure that follows, at all. Joel - 12/01/2011 02:06:41 AM 1137 Views
they never mention their study methods Ava - 12/01/2011 02:14:15 PM 1219 Views
Gosh, look what you started. nossy - 12/01/2011 03:00:23 PM 1213 Views
somebody need to start something it is pretty dead around here *NM* random thoughts - 12/01/2011 03:16:54 PM 700 Views
Seriously *NM* beetnemesis - 12/01/2011 09:56:56 PM 668 Views
I agree that it would be awesome to hang with my kid every day and not have to work. TaskmasterJack - 12/01/2011 11:33:25 PM 1249 Views
that part would be great random thoughts - 12/01/2011 11:40:49 PM 1210 Views
I could do it every day. TaskmasterJack - 13/01/2011 12:52:56 AM 1141 Views
Me too... Jacob - 13/01/2011 02:45:49 PM 1263 Views
So here's the question. Why don't men have a "choice" to opt-out? Aeryn - 15/01/2011 06:13:28 AM 1231 Views
They do. Rebekah - 15/01/2011 09:42:29 AM 1162 Views
read further up the thread random thoughts - 15/01/2011 10:49:08 AM 1256 Views
I really wish that were more socially acceptable. Clover - 15/01/2011 07:58:57 PM 1257 Views
I feel I have that choice. TaskmasterJack - 16/01/2011 12:08:48 AM 1181 Views
They most certainly do. Jacob - 18/01/2011 04:39:09 PM 1307 Views
This sounds awful to me. rebelaessedai - 13/01/2011 04:27:08 AM 1212 Views
Re: This sounds awful to me. TaskmasterJack - 14/01/2011 02:47:36 AM 1217 Views
Yikes. rebelaessedai - 14/01/2011 11:13:39 PM 1206 Views
I should have twigged on to that sooner. I would have if I had read more posts before answering. Tashmere - 13/01/2011 02:50:20 AM 1202 Views
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