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It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac Send a noteboard - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM
IS it that you think the mass estimates are actually off or that they are right and we just can't see the otherwise normal matter? Because they're kinda separate for the purpose of producing supporting evidence.

What bothers me is that there seem to be several possible but largely unexplored alternatives to "well, that's dark matter irrefutably proven then". I'm reminded of that Laplace line paraphrased as extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence; positing not just neutrinos but an entire new class of matter strikes me as something requiring a bit more evidence than one anomaly can provide. Particularly given many members of the group pressing that claim reject far older and less controversial claims possessing far more evidence.... :P


Well we've detected neutrinos and they matched up to what we'd postulated pretty well, I'm assuming you meant the neutralinos, the leading WIMP candidate. Keep in mind that neutrinos and quarks hadn't been detected when either of us were born, and the original theory is from the 60s, the main guy who formulated it, Gell-Mann, is still alive and kicking, so its not like hypothetical particle candidates haven't been regularly proposed and disposed or proven in recent decades. Black holes have been posited as early as the 1780's, Laplace actually did some work on those, extrasolar planets have been suggested for a long time too, both weren't pinned down until pretty recently either. Takes time.

Anyway, I'm not sure who is saying "well, that's dark matter irrefutably proven then" but let me point out that Dark Matter, while usually in modern context referring to the exotic stuff, still just means anything we can't see yet, and I'd definitely say the consensus is that most matter is dark, what the hell that dark matter is composed of is still heavily debated, but the more mundane alternatives have ever-increasing evidence against them as the lead candidate. I'm not sure how versed you on that evidence, we can discuss it but you'd kinda have to be specific on what your suggesting. I take it though that you're already familiar with the major bits of evidence like the Bullet and Trainwreck clusters, is there anything in particular about those you dispute?
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

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Exciting video about the universe - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1264 Views
Cool, and true *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 430 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 966 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 909 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 846 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 950 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 885 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 789 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 812 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 910 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 987 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 827 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 783 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 865 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 786 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 860 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 812 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 1018 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 831 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 898 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 851 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 970 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 938 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 926 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1278 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 833 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 824 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 963 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 773 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1299 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 815 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 1027 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 936 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 790 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 871 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 774 Views

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