Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
Dreaded Anomaly Send a noteboard - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM
I'm not seeing why larger MACHOs have to emit light (I'm tempted to reference black holes again, but where they fit into the classification of normal/normal dark/exotic dark matter seems ambiguous). Probably just my ignorance showing again, but since stars produce all the heavy nuclei large aggregates of those nuclei, either as nebulae or non-luminous masses, seem viable, especially at the edge of the galaxy. As I understand it, stellar formation is thought to produce energy levels that preclude anything more complex than hydrogen and helium, but if heavier nuclei can exist within old stars it seems like they ought to be able to mass without the force of their compaction reducing them to hydrogen nuclei and ultimately igniting a star. Eliminating MACHOs from the Milky Ways perimeter through gravitational lensing eliminates any other matter as well, but I don't see why it eliminates MACHOs in other locations where gravitational lensing shows dark matter.
These are all questions that display a lack of education in astrophysics. Astrophysicists have put tons of work into investigating and describing star formation and related phenomena. A big enough collection of mass is going to emit some light because the gravitational force will cause nuclear fusion to occur. Note that fusion does not only occur with hydrogen nuclei, and amounts of heavier nuclei are limited by nucleosynthesis measurements from the cosmic microwave background.
You lost me here, sorry. If there's enough gravitational lensing (our main evidence of dark matter, right?) to account for the Milky Ways rotation how can a there be a LACK of such lensing that rules out non-luminous MACHOs? Wouldn't gravitational lensing that rules out one rule out the other?
Our initial evidence of dark matter were anomalous galactic rotation curves. Some of our best evidence for exotic dark matter is lensing from, e.g., the Bullet Cluster. Based on the former evidence, we know that dark matter is distributed fairly uniformly within galaxies. If dark matter is mostly MACHOs, we should still be able to see lensing from those concentrated bodies within our galaxy, and we don't. Exotic dark matter hypotheses tend to predict a more diffuse collection of particles, so lensing would not be easily visible from nearby sources. The far-away lensing that we observe is not consistent with MACHOs, as Sean Carroll explained in the blog post I linked previously.
It partly stems from that, unquestionably, but it mainly stems from knowing science has an impressive track record of doing that kind of thing. It's tempting to portray Galileos stand against Rome as science vs. religion, but the fact is there were plenty of well established members of the scientific community on the other side of that argument. It was not so much science vs. religion as revolutionary science vs. establishment science; establishment religion just had a vested interest in taking the latters side. Just recently I was reading about Max Planck being told when he started grad school that he was basically wasting his time because physics was a finished field with only a few known minor details left to flesh out fully, and that mindset made quantum mechanics very controversial for some time. Knowing that "quintessence" long flourished as an explanation for light behaving as both wave and particle in the days before duality was conceived makes it natural to worry it might be happpening again (especially, once again, when the same term has been revived with a new application). As you've suggested, I may guilty of my own charge in clinging to non-exotic dark matter, but I'm trying not to get married to either novel or established physics, but stay focused on accurate explanations regardless of source. There's ample precedent to fear such overcommitment; again, I accept your statement that it's not happening because you undeniably have more knowlege on which to judge. That said, I hope you don't mean it CAN'T happen, because expanding knowledge encourages rather than discouraging it.
Probably half of the physics professors I've known have, at one point or another, made fun of the people in the previous century who said that physics was almost "done." The increasing access to information today means that almost everyone in the field has heard those stories, so that sort of thinking simply doesn't occur as often as it once did in more parochial times.
I'm not ignoring or marginalizing it, but it still seems inconclusive. If it rules out normal dark matter, which seems to be the case, I accept that correction and apologize for unfounded objections. As I understand the evidence you've presented, however, the case AGAINST normal dark matter is quite strong but the case FOR exotic dark matter much less so.
The latter is, to a large degree, reciprocal with the former. If we know that dark matter acts like matter in general in that it gravitates (which we do) and that evidence has just about ruled out normal matter (which it has), then the obvious conclusion is that dark matter is a new form of matter.
Exciting video about the universe
- 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM
1349 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect.
- 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM
1071 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter.
- 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM
1007 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM
921 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM
1034 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM
967 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM
923 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM
897 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that.
- 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM
978 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM
1075 Views
- 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM
1075 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM
903 Views
- 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM
903 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
872 Views
- 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
872 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM
944 Views
- 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM
944 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM
876 Views
- 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM
876 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am.
- 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM
949 Views
- 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM
949 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
- 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM
898 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
- 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM
1119 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
- 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM
917 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind.
- 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM
985 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
- 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM
1246 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately.
- 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM
1237 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter:
- 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM
924 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
- 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM
1054 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue.
- 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM
1019 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM
1007 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM
962 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM
1154 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM
928 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM
1217 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM
812 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM
1170 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM
937 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM
1251 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM
1088 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM
1308 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible".
- 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM
1048 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99)
- 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM
1378 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry.
- 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM
916 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter.
- 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM
935 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
- 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM
1066 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
- 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM
878 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
- 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM
1405 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes.
- 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM
890 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM
1136 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM
1017 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM
1231 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM
942 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM
1216 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM
937 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM
897 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM
857 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM
955 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM
902 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM
1089 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should.
- 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM
1062 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at
- 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM
878 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two.
- 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM
950 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly
- 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM
866 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely.
- 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM
1057 Views
