I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
Tom Send a noteboard - 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
I support gay rights. I support gay marriage. I think that everyone has a right to live as they choose as long as what they are doing does not constitute a direct trespass (as defined by law) against the persons or property of others.
I also happen to have a very personal and eccentric belief system that I consider to be nominally Christian but which others would doubtless not call Christian. As a result, I don't care if some Jewish shepherd stinking of sheep shit said this, that or the other. I also don't care if some self-loathing Jew named Paul decided to pontificate on every stupid subject he could think of.
However, as I understand it, the Presbyterians do claim to actually follow the entire Bible, and the Bible is very clear in both the Old Testament and New, that homosexual sex (at least male) is a direct "abomination". Let me then ask: can a Presbyterian homosexual minister have homosexual sex? How does the Presbyterian Church allow this without becoming a "halfway house to atheism", as the good Cardinal Newman once said?
I also happen to have a very personal and eccentric belief system that I consider to be nominally Christian but which others would doubtless not call Christian. As a result, I don't care if some Jewish shepherd stinking of sheep shit said this, that or the other. I also don't care if some self-loathing Jew named Paul decided to pontificate on every stupid subject he could think of.
However, as I understand it, the Presbyterians do claim to actually follow the entire Bible, and the Bible is very clear in both the Old Testament and New, that homosexual sex (at least male) is a direct "abomination". Let me then ask: can a Presbyterian homosexual minister have homosexual sex? How does the Presbyterian Church allow this without becoming a "halfway house to atheism", as the good Cardinal Newman once said?
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
- 11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
1473 Views
*NM*
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
- 12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
1047 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
- 12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
955 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
- 12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
894 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
- 12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
834 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
- 12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
859 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
- 14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
806 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
- 14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
880 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
- 14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
1045 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
- 14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
872 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
- 12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
932 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
- 12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
986 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
- 12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
835 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
- 14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
940 Views
They did so, via negativa.
- 12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
987 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
- 14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
805 Views
Your church has a constitution?!
- 12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
870 Views
My Church has a congress! 
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
418 Views
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
418 Views
Haha no way! *NM*
- 12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
379 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos. 
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
413 Views
*NM*
- 12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
413 Views
I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
- 12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
1047 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
- 12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
877 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
- 12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
1005 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
- 12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
919 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
- 12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
889 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
- 12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
962 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
- 12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
937 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
- 13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
965 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
- 13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
900 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
- 13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
796 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
- 13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
864 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
- 13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
785 Views
Another example...
- 12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
791 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
- 12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
786 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
- 12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
838 Views
We both know that isn't the case
- 12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
931 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
- 12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
906 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
- 12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
778 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
- 12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
859 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
- 12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
808 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
- 14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
1118 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
- 14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
865 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
- 14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
873 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
- 14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
822 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
- 12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
838 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
- 12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
992 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest
- 13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
877 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
- 13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
353 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
- 13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
816 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius. 
- 14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
764 Views
- 14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
764 Views