You're excoriating Joel for asking a very valid question. There is a clear and explicit disconnect between the way you are practicing Christianity and the way that it has been understood for some two odd millennia. If you're willing to say that you're Gnostics, Arians or Cathars, or that you're a new branch of Christianity based on a different revelation then I can accept that as your choice. However, you claim to be Pauline Christians following the text of the Bible. There is explicit language against all of these acts in the Bible. I haven't seen a satisfactory explanation from the Presbyterian Church (which has admittedly never been strong on theology) as to how these ideas are reconciled.
If you want to pillory Joel and be thankful he's not a Presbyterian, that's fine. Everyone around here has pilloried him at one time or another. However, don't think for an instant that this somehow means that the points he's raising aren't valid, or that you don't have to address them just because it makes you uncomfortable.
If you want to pillory Joel and be thankful he's not a Presbyterian, that's fine. Everyone around here has pilloried him at one time or another. However, don't think for an instant that this somehow means that the points he's raising aren't valid, or that you don't have to address them just because it makes you uncomfortable.
I suspect Ghav knows that and was trying to catch me in a double standard, but I don't feel bound to every one of Pauls shopping lists found and made canon, because in a few instances he says point blank he's giving his opinion rather than the Holy Spirits divine judgement. What status, if any, Chloe and Phoebe had in the early Christian hierachy may be debateable, but it's undeniable that the bible represents Deborah as a Judge, which was pretty much the top of the Churchs mortal hierarchy at the time. That trumps Paul in my book (so to speak). I can't think of any such examples regarding homosexuals though. Arguments that any biblical or Church Fathers writings or subsequent Church history and tradition condone the practice are very new, and I know of none that don't either discount the MANY prohibitions or make biblical friends of the same sex into lovers. I'm willing to say it MIGHT be open to interpretation because I'm not God and still don't consider the scribes infallible, but if practicing homosexuality is permissible it's a pretty glaring oversight given all the HOSTILE language on the subject. Again, I'm not saying anyone should be kicked out of the Church over it, but if the issue of whether it offends God is that uncertain condoning it in Church leaders is unwise.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Presbyterian Church (USA) passes Amendment 10-A.
11/05/2011 05:39:29 PM
- 1458 Views
What's the language? Did they at least TRY to give a doctrinal justification?
12/05/2011 02:10:46 AM
- 1036 Views
Thank you for that rousing argument against married priests.
12/05/2011 03:36:51 AM
- 938 Views
Why ARE you letting women into the priesthood?
12/05/2011 04:16:50 AM
- 881 Views
Because Episcopalians don't listen to the Bible much.
12/05/2011 05:47:03 AM
- 820 Views
That's just fine as far as I'm concerned
12/05/2011 02:23:44 PM
- 843 Views
Yes, I suppose a church could go that route.
14/05/2011 07:38:02 AM
- 792 Views
I'm not attempting to impose a dichotomy on the Bible.
14/05/2011 03:25:30 PM
- 865 Views
I don't even know what following the Bible in its entirety means.
14/05/2011 09:09:10 PM
- 1033 Views
As an exercise, I tried to think of how I would justify allowing homosexuals as clergy.
14/05/2011 04:19:43 PM
- 851 Views
Thanks (I'm actually OK with women priests though).
12/05/2011 07:09:11 AM
- 921 Views
There's ample precedent for female religious leaders, even within the bible.
12/05/2011 06:51:05 AM
- 962 Views
Since when is Moses' society the be-all end all?
12/05/2011 07:12:41 PM
- 822 Views
Since never, which is why I referenced five other eras you completely ignored.
14/05/2011 01:11:30 AM
- 926 Views
They did so, via negativa.
12/05/2011 04:22:17 PM
- 972 Views
Sorry for the delay, particularly since it looks like I'll be spending a fair amount of time here.
14/05/2011 12:31:33 AM
- 783 Views
Your church has a constitution?!
12/05/2011 03:36:41 AM
- 846 Views
My Church has a congress!
*NM*
12/05/2011 03:37:52 AM
- 411 Views

Haha no way! *NM*
12/05/2011 03:46:32 AM
- 368 Views
Well, we have one group of laity and one of bishops, so it is only mildy utter chaos.
*NM*
12/05/2011 05:51:09 AM
- 405 Views

I'm happy to hear this, personally. I also wonder how you reconcile this with the Bible.
12/05/2011 04:11:31 AM
- 1031 Views
Every direct reference to homosexuality in the Bible is a reference to rape.
12/05/2011 04:12:43 PM
- 861 Views
Every single word that you wrote in your response is complete bullshit.
12/05/2011 05:50:07 PM
- 992 Views
Knock off your eisegesis, try some exegesis
12/05/2011 07:02:45 PM
- 905 Views
I'm trying to figure out just what your "gifts" are, because I don't see any.
12/05/2011 07:30:39 PM
- 877 Views
There are cases in which hypocrisy is far better than the alternatives.
12/05/2011 10:04:32 PM
- 950 Views
Hypocrisy is better than, say, setting gays on fire, yes.
12/05/2011 10:10:40 PM
- 925 Views
My statement is that, from a pragmatic point of view, hypocrisy shouldn't be discouraged too much.
13/05/2011 10:05:39 PM
- 940 Views
Oh, is that how we're playing this, then?
13/05/2011 06:29:31 PM
- 883 Views
I'm not playing. I'm pointing out some glaring errors on your part.
13/05/2011 07:25:08 PM
- 782 Views
The Bible says what it says. The problem... people like to tell us just what else it's saying.
13/05/2011 05:31:29 PM
- 849 Views
You don't reconcile... you pick the parts you like and adjust the rest to suit you.
13/05/2011 09:33:54 PM
- 774 Views
Another example...
12/05/2011 09:19:52 AM
- 773 Views
If you claim to follow the entire Bible, then you are completely correct.
12/05/2011 06:04:38 PM
- 771 Views
On the contrary, this move will take some butts out of the seats.
12/05/2011 07:16:22 PM
- 822 Views
We both know that isn't the case
12/05/2011 07:55:41 PM
- 918 Views
Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 05:33:49 PM
- 887 Views
No Protestant denomination has added so much as a word to the Bible
12/05/2011 05:58:16 PM
- 758 Views
So, everyone hates Judith, then?
12/05/2011 06:40:11 PM
- 840 Views
The Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Churches accept Judith as part of Scripture.
12/05/2011 07:51:27 PM
- 790 Views
Does the Eastern Orthodox Church also segregate deuterocanonical works like Roman Catholicism does?
14/05/2011 02:19:03 AM
- 1100 Views
The Eastern Church bases everything on the Septuagint.
14/05/2011 02:34:41 AM
- 848 Views
That sounds appealing, and makes sense.
14/05/2011 02:44:56 AM
- 860 Views
Oh, I just enjoy calling Protestants "heretics" to remind them not everyone agrees with them.
14/05/2011 03:25:42 AM
- 811 Views
Re: Cool cool. I have a question on a semi-related note, about Protestant Gospels
12/05/2011 08:52:48 PM
- 826 Views
The NIV is terrible. The NASB has the best translation I have found (of the NT, at least).
12/05/2011 10:43:58 PM
- 970 Views
I find this really weird, to be honest
13/05/2011 05:48:28 AM
- 856 Views
Well, it wasn't just Athanasius. But yes, we are lucky in that respect. *NM*
13/05/2011 06:32:48 AM
- 347 Views
Athanasius's list reflected the victory of Pauline Christianity
13/05/2011 02:52:53 PM
- 795 Views
There's a school of thought that says that's a strong vindication of Athanasius.
14/05/2011 02:37:49 AM
- 752 Views
