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Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM
Perhaps so. It doesn't sound like a case of ruling out one thing ruling in another, not when we still await direct evidence of dark matter.


Exotic dark matter is the group of explanations that makes by far the most sense after a full consideration of the evidence that we have. Direct detection experiments are very important for narrowing the span of that theory space, but the current evidence overwhelmingly sends us there already.

Statements like that are what make me nervous, because you seem to be saying we know exotic dark matter is out there and are now simply refining our understanding of that known substance. Another unhypothesized approach might be accurate, but we've already found the answer so we won't bother looking for it. If you're just saying direct detection experiments will narrow the space of all possible theories that's different, of course, but if you're saying dark matter has been proven by default and we're just seeking experimental and observational evidence to better describe what we know to exist we're back where we started: We've never directly detected it, but we know it's there, so let's keep looking till we find it. Whether it actually IS there or not. I'm not confident that we'll quickly realize if it's not there because it's impossible to prove a negative; that's why there are still people looking for proton decay despite the fact it's not only unlikely to occur, but unlikely to be detectable in any reproducable way even if it does.
Maybe not centuries given the rate at which things occur today (though the first team to detect a neutrino only got a Nobel Prize for it a half century later). Blind alleys and group think remain a valid concern though, one that's more serious rather than less as theories advance. Dusting off terms like "quintessence" for dark energy doesn't exactly reassure me there. Bottomline is that any time people become so committed to a theory that they cease questioning whether it could have a fundamental flaw all the review and experimentation in the world won't help them; when the evidence conflicts with an inviolable principle the search begins, not for a more accurate principle, but for a way to reconcile the evidence with the flawed the theory. That process will last as long as a community is willing to pursue it, and is less a function of research than of the theorys social inertia. If you say that's not happening I'll accept that since you're obviously in a better position to say so, but modern science hasn't made it impossible, and the idea it has is another example of the kind of unassailable certainty that makes me nervous.

Again, these nebulous "people" supposedly becoming so committed to a theory. There are plenty of scientists who continue to look critically at the theory. Of course modern science hasn't made such a thing impossible, but it has reduced its likelihood to far below the level at which you appear to be worrying about it.

If you say so.
Interesting comment; do you think someone has a FULL understanding of the situation and evidence, or that all proposed solutions are futile?

The situation, in that context, is the breadth of the evidence, theorizing, and experiments in the field as it stands today.

It could have either meaning, but I accept that was the specific one intended.
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Exciting video about the universe Camilla - 28/04/2011 10:14:55 AM 1483 Views
Cool, and true *NM* Stephen - 28/04/2011 11:46:29 AM 543 Views
I still think dark matter's just non-luminous matter without a convenient light source to reflect. Joel - 28/04/2011 10:34:21 PM 1182 Views
We've just about ruled out the idea that dark matter is just non-luminous "ordinary" matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 28/04/2011 11:44:34 PM 1123 Views
I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 29/04/2011 01:52:49 AM 1042 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 02:56:32 AM 1163 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:02:49 PM 1106 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:35 PM 1029 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:30 AM 1017 Views
Re: I'm aware of the Bullet Cluster, though admittedly not much more than that. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:18 AM 1107 Views
There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:04:53 AM 1201 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:28:48 PM 1021 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:45 AM 994 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:40 AM 1046 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:55:21 AM 991 Views
Re: There's such a thing as knowing when you're licked, and I believe I am. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:32:27 PM 1056 Views
The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 24/05/2011 10:34:04 PM 1000 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:08:01 PM 1257 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Joel - 25/05/2011 01:27:10 AM 1031 Views
Re: The Pati-Salam model was the one I had in mind. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:18 AM 1116 Views
Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:04 AM 1366 Views
Re: Apologies for the delay; internet's been spotty and I've been busy lately. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:18 AM 1359 Views
Also, re: lensing from ordinary matter: Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 05:18:47 AM 1075 Views
This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Joel - 30/04/2011 05:25:04 PM 1172 Views
Re: This seems like another example of what confuses the issue. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:40 PM 1126 Views
That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:03 AM 1136 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:24 AM 1077 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:02 AM 1277 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:29:36 PM 1035 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 14/05/2011 05:35:56 AM 1342 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:09:55 AM 921 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 19/05/2011 02:47:25 AM 1282 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:46:30 PM 1063 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 25/05/2011 12:20:10 AM 1360 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:22 AM 1275 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Joel - 10/06/2011 12:04:06 AM 1430 Views
Re: That discussion seems to reduce to "as little new and exotic physics as possible". Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:12 AM 1171 Views
Re: I still think... (apparently, there is a 100 character limit on subjects, and yours was 99) Tor - 28/04/2011 11:57:15 PM 1514 Views
Seems to happen to me a lot; sorry. Joel - 29/04/2011 12:56:14 AM 1036 Views
None of this reflects on the actual facts of dark matter. Dreaded Anomaly - 29/04/2011 01:32:52 AM 1055 Views
I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 30/04/2011 04:30:28 PM 1178 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 30/04/2011 08:56:44 PM 1068 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:28:58 AM 1537 Views
Re: I concede my grasp (or grope) is a somewhat superficial laymans, yes. Dreaded Anomaly - 04/05/2011 04:18:27 AM 1016 Views
I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 07/05/2011 02:05:09 AM 1312 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 09/05/2011 11:32:17 PM 1134 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 14/05/2011 05:36:24 AM 1366 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 17/05/2011 02:10:03 AM 1050 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 19/05/2011 04:33:06 AM 1329 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 09:59:38 PM 1050 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 24/05/2011 11:19:43 PM 1003 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 24/05/2011 11:33:58 PM 969 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 25/05/2011 12:55:36 AM 1056 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 31/05/2011 09:16:24 AM 1023 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Joel - 10/06/2011 12:09:13 AM 1195 Views
Re: I don't object to changing my mind, but can take more convincing than I really should. Dreaded Anomaly - 14/06/2011 03:38:05 AM 1185 Views
Might help if you clarified where your skepticism is at Isaac - 29/04/2011 02:32:07 AM 985 Views
Potentially either, or a combination of the two. Joel - 30/04/2011 02:36:50 PM 1051 Views
It's hard to discuss without knowing your objections a bit more clearly Isaac - 30/04/2011 04:58:03 PM 978 Views
My primary objection is that alternatives to dark matter seem to have been ruled out prematurely. Joel - 02/05/2011 01:29:14 AM 1216 Views
Well, they weren't, not really sure how else to put that Isaac - 10/05/2011 03:19:57 AM 1219 Views
Alright then, objection withdrawn (cautious skepticism intact). Joel - 14/05/2011 05:34:17 AM 1329 Views
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